eBay find: 1963 Crown Tour Coach

[Griff]

Ditto to the 3rd power!

[Mark R. Obtinario]

Hi,

I hope bringing home your "new-to-you" bus will be troublefree.

Your thoughts about your "new-to you" bus triggered some thoughts for me.

A mid-mount engine Crown does not have much of a frame structure in the rear trunk area. It was designed as a crush/crunch zone so that any rear end damage would not be transferred into the passenger compartment. Consequently the addition of a trailer hitch is not just a matter of welding a hitch receiver tube on the bottom of the bumper. You will have to fabricate some sort of support system to reinforce the bumper mounts. If you don't you could pull the trunk off of the back of the bus.

As far as the rust on a Crown is concerned, most of the body panels are aluminum. The frames around the front and rear windows are steel and do have a tendency to rust. I would guess the rust around the rear window of your bus is most likely surface rust and easily repaired with a little sanding and new paint. If it isn't, the job of replacing what is damaged shouldn't be that big of a job.

Small cam Cummins engines have two problems that one has to be made aware.

The first is the small cam Cummins are hard to start when cold. It is exacerbated if the humidity is high. Most small cam Cummins had compression releases to help with the cold starting. I have a K-W with a small cam 220 that has the compression release control on the dashboard. On the Crowns it can be found at the back of the engine on the driver's side of the bus. Pull the compression release, spin the engine until you have oil pressure and it should start. Just don't use ether or any other sort of starting aid or you will exacerbate the second problem small cam Cummins have. The only aid I can think of that will help and not hurt is some lube oil.

If an engine has been sitting for quite a while, and if the engine has been spun on the starter quite a few times without the engine starting, you may have a problem with the rings not seating tight enough. Some lube oil into the intake will increase the compression enough to help you start the engine. Heating the intake manifold until it is hot to the touch will help a cold start as well.

The second problem has to do with an original design flaw in the engine. Someone at Cummins thought six one inch head bolts torqued to 750 ft/lbs would be sufficient to keep the heads from walking around on the top of the block. They weren't which is why the big cam Cummins have twelve 9/16" head bolts torqued to 350 ft/lbs. Over time the heads will walk around as they heat and cool. As they walk around the heads will actually wear the head gaskets out. When they do you get water into the oil.

I don't know if it is a problem that is worse on a Crown with the engine laid over on the side but it is a problem. If you ever have to have engine work done, shop around and find someone who really knows the small cam Cummins engines. Your local Cummins dealer most probably will not have anyone on staff any longer who really knows the small cam Cummins engine. Add in the horizontal mounting with the NHH application only injection pump and you have a special engine that requires special attention.

As far as using your bus as a for-hire vehicle, don't even think about it. I had to stop using my 1969 Crown and then my 1974 MCI because the insurance companies would not insure anything that old. Anything older than 20-years old is considered uninsurable in the commercial market. And the only way you can insure a bus that is 15-20 years old is if the average age of your fleet is less than 10-years old.

And the dollar amount you were quoted for commercial for-hire bus insurance, that is pretty much the going price. Which is part of the reason why Cowlitz Coach no longer operates any buses for hire.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Sincerely,
Mark R. Obtinario
Castle Rock, WA

[Navservice]

Hi all, I won't make to Oakland until Monday earliest. I made a trip to Needles today to ask questions about past due registration and such. The lady told me the bus is not registered to the church. In fact, it was in the middle of the title being transferred from another state (she couldn't tell which one) but the transfer was never completed. I called the seller yesterday to get the VIN and plate number and he told me he had a new title made up by a lien processor. I called the lien processor and he tells me there is nothing due on the bus, just that he was doing what was necessary to replace a missing title. The lady in Needles was doubtful, she says I should go to the Oakland DMV with the guy I'm buying the bus from, even then she sees problems. There are back registration fees of $330. I'll have to pay sales tax and there will be a title transfer fee. I'm not too worried about the fees but I wonder which state the bus came from. I wonder if that has something to do with the rust. I wonder just how much rust there is.

I noticed the $16,000 Flagstaff bus does not have the louvers in the lower body driver's side panel in front of the rear axle like the Oakland bus (dare I say MY bus?). I also didn't see any louvers in the roof. I also noticed (you can tell I've been spending a lot of time looking at the photos) there is something like a duct above the parcel rack about where the roof louvers are in the photo of MY interior. Maybe I should hold off this MY thing until I finish paying for the bus.

There might be a better place to post this but I need info on installing a trailer hitch receiver on a Crown.

I can see a new saga developing, the journey home. Maybe there is a better place for me to do that too.

I just saw Mark's post with some much needed info as I'm writing this.

Thanks for the encouragement everyone, I'm hoping (and dreaming) for good things.

Miles Hunter in Kingman

[Navservice]

Thanks for the info Mark, now that I've read ALL of your post I see there is some good stuff in there.

When I spoke With Patrick Young on the phone, he told me about the compression release and about the heads taking a stroll. He also pointed out the that Cummins was made in the days when you actually could find #1 diesel fuel. He suggests that I save the old oil when I get an oil change and put about a quart of it in the fuel tank everytime I fill up.

I'd thought that lubricating oil in the cylinders might be a nice thing but I was thinking of corrosion. How would you go about getting the oil into the cylinders, I thought you would have to remove each injector and squirt some in.

Patrick also mentioned something about coolant additive but I can't remember the details. I planned on changing the oil, coolant, filters, and checking other fluids and getting a chassis lube as soon as I can get the bus to a place that can do it. I think a brake inspection would also be in order.

[Sharkey]

Wow. A bunch of stuff to relate.

Title/fees: I don't know what your state has to say on the subject, but Oregon doesn't care about the registration from the originating state being current. All they wanted was a "pink slip" title from the state of CA. I was able to get an OR trip permit for my crown although the bus was still registered to the California school district from 14 years back. Oregon didn't charge me any late fees or other charges to bring the long-expired bus into the state and title/register it here.

Make sure that you need to have those back registration fees paid before you shell out the CA for something that your state may not care about.

Towing: On the school bus models, the rear "trunk" area really is a bit thin on structural framing, and installing a tow hitch for a very heavy trailer would probably require beefing up the frame members under the floor in the back a bit. I don't know what the highway coach construction is like, might be the same, might not. In any case, Jerry Campbell here tows a little VW Caddy pickup with his with no problems. There's also some posts here by "Hogcat", who I believe has posted some photos of his bumper hitch on a Crown.

Used engine oil in the fuel: DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!!! What ever could possess someone to take the most sooty, nasty black crankcase oil with possible acidic deposits and put it though the injectors??? If you are concerned about fuel lubricity, either go out and purchase a purpose-made fuel additive, or better yet, run a 2% blend of biodiesel. Trying to save a few pennies by putting polluted used oil into your fuel is nigh-on nutcase in my opinion.

Coolant additive: Wet-sleeve diesel engines tend to have problems with cavitation (the formation of tiny, erosive bubbles) on the coolant jacket of the cylinders. In time, this can erode the cylinder wall from the inside out and cause problems. Using distilled water and proper coolant is the best defense. There are also additives to minimize the formation of the bubbles, which worsens the longer the problem goes on. Otherwise, don't worry excessively about it.

You'll want to learn to inspect your own brakes, as air brake systems need constant observation by the vehicle operator to insure that the slack adjusters are properly set. This needs to be done frequently when the bus is being driven daily. Seen those "truck brake check area" pullovers at the top of mountain passes? That's where the truckers can pull off and check the slack adjusters before decending the grade. Air brakes don't give any feedback to the pedal when they are getting too far out of adjustment, they just stop working, and it can happen anytime from one pass to the next.

My advice: Carry a spare fuel filter! Especially if the bus has been sitting for a while. I'd have gotten stranded last time I drove my bus if I hadn't had one and the tools to change it.

At some point, we should shift this discussion over to the Bus Barn forum, but no hurry on that.

[Navservice]

Thanks for the advice about oil, now that I think about it, it might be cheaper to buy the stuff. Does anyone else with a Cummins feel the need?

Yeah on the fuel filters, I tend to be a little paranoid about what there might be in the tank (algae, etc.). Is there any problem with changing them on the road, does it break prime when you remove the old filter?

Just for kicks here's a picture of my other toy:


Miles in Kingman

[Navservice]

OOPS! Next time I'll make it smaller

[Sharkey]

I was just finishing up a reply to this when my browser did some weird thing and I lost it all. Grrr, welll, here goes again...

Fuel additives wouldn't be a bad idea on a 44 year old engine. When the Crown was built diesel fuel had 5000 parts-per-million of sulfur. Some years back it was reduced to 500 ppm. This year, it was reduced further to 15 ppm. That's a big reduction in lubricating sulfur for the injection system and valves.

You could use commercial additives, or biodiesel, which is cheaper. A 2% blend of biodiesel will increase the lubrcity of the fuel to over the 5000 ppm level.

Changing the filter was no special trouble. I would have been screwed if I hadn't had a filter wrench, the old filter was on very tight. My engine has a gate valve between the tank and the filter, so closing it prevented the fuel from siphoning back into the tank while the filter was off. Any trapped air must have been quickly returned to the tank, as the engine never faltered after restarting. Note that I did fill the new filter with clean fuel before mounting it (helped to have a section of hose to siphon fuel from the tank too).

It's posted elsewhere, but here's a photo of the alongside-the-road procedure:

[Mark R. Obtinario]

Changing filters on a Cummins is not the big deal procedure it is on a Detroit Diesel. Losing the prime and having to reprime a DD is not a whole lot of fun, particularly if you haven't done it before and don't have the tools to do the job.

On a Cummins, fill the new filter with fresh fuel and spin it back on. The engine should start right up. It may stumble a little bit as it works the air out of the lines but it should be back in business in the time it takes you to put your tools away and clean up the mess. The one thing your really do not want to do is run the fuel tank dry. Even with a Cummins it can be a real pain to get things going again if you run out of fuel.

I have no idea why Patrick would tell you to put used motor oil into your fuel. Can you say clogging up fuel filters?! I know some people who do put their used motor oil into their fuel in order to make their fuel $$$ go farther. I have always wondered if they pay out more in extra fuel filters than just paying for more fuel.

There is something to the fact the new ULSD does not have the lubricity the old fuel had. Using an off the counter fuel additive is not a bad idea.

As far as the coolant is concerned, cavitation in a wet sleeve engine can spell major engine rebuild problems fairly quickly. The use of a water filter with a coolant additive charge is a good idea. NAPA has a coolant additive called Nacool IIRC that works very well.

Some people recommend distilled water. I don't use distilled water because my well water is very soft. Whatever water you use, just make sure the water isn't hard with a lot of salts and/or solids of one kind or another. All it does is clog up the works. A new or reworked radiator for a Crown is not cheap.

Since your bus has not been on the road for some time, make sure you inspect all of your tires very carefully. Flat tires are no fun. Blowouts at speed can have very exciting and expensive results.

When you inspect the tires look particularly along the bead area for any cracking or weather checking. I have seen old tires seperate right along the bead with the casing taking a walk leaving only the bead behind.

If the tires have steel belts, notice if the tires still have flat spots after a couple of miles. Steel belts can actually get bent into a flat spot. When they finally smooth out they usually take out the top of the casing.

Don't be fooled by the depth of the tread. I had one tire that looked as if it had no miles on it. But when it came apart the tread came off as if it had been a top cap.

If nothing else, just make sure you have the tires inflated enough. Low air pressure causes heat which can cause tires to fail prematurely.

Again, good luck and keep us posted as to your adventure.

Mark O.
Castle Rock, WA

[Navservice]

I started posting in the Bus Barn, something like "Bringing my new bus home". Still lots of questions and a few surprises.

Miles in Kingman