Taking a Honda Insight for a spin

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AccordGuy
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Taking a Honda Insight for a spin

Post by AccordGuy »

The new Honda Insight hybrid car is out in the UK and I'm signed up on Tuesday for a test drive. Looking through the brochure it looks quite good. 1.3L petrol engine with a in-line electric motor and a new 100V NiMH pack.

Unlike the hybrid Civic, the Insight can supposedly drive for some way (they don't say how far) at up to 29 mph just on battery power alone. If it can make it to the local supermarket and back on battery power only then I'll have something like a proper EV for shopping but the convenience of the petrol engine for longer trips out of town.

http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/insight/

I'll let you know what I think after I've had a go in it. Just looking in the showroom it looked good and was more functional than the Civic because the battery has been made smaller and is now in the floor of the boot (trunk) rather than in the rear seat. Previously, that meant you couldn't fold the rear seats down to take a long load and that was a blocker for me, as we're always buying big long things from garden / DIY / furniture shops.

If the EV mode were coupled with a home charger (rather than just regenerative braking and petrol generated electricity) then I could use my solar system to trickle charge the car. Sometimes I go for four or five days without touching my car at the moment, so I'd have the time to charge it up slowly within the 1kW power limit of my solar system.
Sharkey
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Post by Sharkey »

Very interesting, that is not the car that Honda introduced as the first hybrid Insight in the US in the late 1990's. That car is quite a bit different:

Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Insight

I know of at least one owner who ripped the IMA power plant from one of these cars and turned it into a pure electric. Maybe once you get your PV system completed, you could take on a new project with your new car?
AccordGuy
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Post by AccordGuy »

Yep, the new Insight owes most of its chassis to the FCX hydrogen fuel cell car they are piloting in the US. I guess it's how they are making the limited production run of the FCX pay back. By re-using the chassis for a mass production (Prius killer) car, they can re-coup some of the development cost of the FCX.

I suppose the main thing that has changed since the late '90s is the energy density of NiMH cells. Take the humble AA cell. In the mid-90's I was using 800mAh NiCds. By the late 90's I was using 1300mAh NiMH and now we have 2600mAh cells in the same size. That's a greater than tripling of the capacity of the same size battery in about 15 years.

Incidentally, when I used to commute to an office, I often used to see a guy in an original Insight on the motorway. They did sell a few here but it never took off as it was a two-seater and quite expensive.

I occasionally get to drive a older generation Civic hybrid as that's the courtesy car they give me when my Accord is in for servicing. It was a mixed bag... manual transmission meant you had to drive economically manually (the newer ones all come with CVT automatic transmission). The electric power steering was abysmal - the steering wheel felt like you were turning a stepper motor (you probably were). The regenerative braking could prove a surprise as it significantly increased engine braking and so you reduced foot braking effort. But just when you got used to the level of predicted foot braking effort required, the battery would top off and the regenerative braking would suddenly disappear! You'd get caught out by suddenly having to use more foot braking effort than you expected for a given rate of deceleration... Somewhat unnerving when you are used to a car that always stops in a completely predictable and repeatable way.
AccordGuy
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Post by AccordGuy »

Well, I went for my test drive today. The newspaper item on the car had said it was based on the FCX chassis but the guy in the showroom said it was actually based on the Jazz model.

Anyway, it's a pretty good drive. It's very quiet and you only hear the engine if you're pushing it hard, when the CVT does a fair impression of a "kick-down" and revs hard. I asked about the EV only mode and he said you can't force it to use electric only but he's seen it do it automatically in stop-start traffic when creeping along. There's also no option to charge it at home.

The general handling of the car is fine with a firm but not overly stiff suspension that means you can corner and stop without the car pitching or rolling (something my Accord used to do until I upgraded the suspension). It's also a very well screwed together car with no squeaks or rattles from anything.

The dash has this digital speedo that changes background colour from green to blue if you are braking too hard or getting heavy with your gas foot and a central info panel can flip though a bunch of different pages of statistics, such as trip info (average speed, average mpg, comparisons on how economically you drove compared to the previous 5 trips). One graphic display mode shows whether you are using petrol power or electric or both. Another one grows little plants if you're driving economically and you can grow five of them and then get them to flower if you keep the good work up... Ahhh... cute!

The engine auto stop feature is better than the one linked to the clutch on the manual transmission Civic I drove before. Being an automatic, it now stops the engine seamlessly when you brake to a stop and starts it again as soon as you lift off the foot brake. The car even creeps forward like a traditional automatic when you release the brake. There's just a slight vibration to give away the petrol engine starting. I did notice one quirk in that if you braked to a stop and then shifted the transmission to N or P and let the foot brake go, the engine would start again but now with no possibility of actually moving anywhere (as you're not in gear)... Odd. But if you want to use the engine to power some electrics (headlights while putting up a tent in the dark or powering an inverter or something) then it's probably a useful mode to have. It also means that you can have the air con running while stopped - I noticed that as you stopped, so did the air con (and the ventilation fans, for that matter). The sales guy said that was one of the more aggressive eco-settings of the car. If you don't push the eco-button on the dash, the auto engine stop feature cuts in less aggressively and so the fans and air con don't stop running.

Unlike previous CVT systems, this one doesn't seek to maintain a level RPM engine speed but drives pretty much like my traditional 4 speed automatic but without the shift shocks. If you need to accelerate hard it "holds the gear" for longer or "kicks down", if necessary.

The steering was much improved (the salesman reckoned there was a fault with the electric power steering on the old courtesy car) and the Insight certainly steered with accuracy and fluid analogue control.

My only real beef with the car was the rear view mirror. The steeply sloped rear window with its angular curve half way down the back of the hatch-back door, combined with a horizontal bar and a central rear seat head rest meant that it was quite difficult to see anything out the back window in the mirror. Luckily, the side mirrors are bigger than commonly found and compensated somewhat.

With the extra torque afforded by the electric motor, it's certainly much faster than a 1.3L petrol car of this size would normally be, but compared to my 2.2L Accord, it's a pretty pedestrian rate of acceleration from a stand-still. I've gotten used to being able to dart out into small gaps in traffic, or join a busy motorway from a short on-ramp using the big engine to be able to merge safely with the traffic, getting from 0-30 mph in under 4 seconds or to 60 mph in under 9 seconds. In the Insight, you're gonna be drumming your fingers for a while longer looking for a bigger gap in the traffic.

I didn't get to find out what happens when the battery gets full, as we only went on a few miles test drive but when just lifting off the accelerator to coast to a stop, it only regenerated a little bit according to the charge / assist gauge. As soon as you touched the brake pedal though, the system started to regenerate more and if you actually applied light pressure to the brake, it would quickly go to maximum regeneration and slow the car remarkably. Hopefully they have addressed the unloading of the regenerative braking when the battery is full by either using the ABS pump to assist the foot brake (so it increases foot brake effort equal to the effect of regenerative braking that would have resulted) or they divert the regenerative current to a dummy load to maintain the expected level of engine braking.

It would be easy to implement the brake control method, as the car has ABS with electronic brake force distribution (to shift the braking effort independently between the four wheels when a skid is detected). So, it could use the same system to bias up the braking on all four wheels (if it was tied into the power-train computer) when the battery is full and regenerative braking force has stopped. Using a dummy load sounds like a more simple idea but such a load will generate a lot of heat that would have to be dissipated somehow... Maybe it could make a nice cup of tea while driving down a steep hill.

Anyway, after the end of my test drive the computer reported that I'd been the most considerate driver of the last five occupants. Considering I'd done some simulated overtaking moves and floored it a couple of times from standing starts, I was somewhat surprised to have topped the league of green drivers and made over 60 mpg in economy. Those other drivers must have been real lead-footers :D

The stereo was a bit of a disappointment, only taking one CD and no option for a CD changer, even on the extortionately expensive DVD sat nav option (over 800 Pounds for what is obviously about 150 Pounds worth of sat nav electronics). I've already got a sat nav on my mobile phone and that cost me just 100 Pounds for the software and maps. The only consolation was that the standard radio can play MP3 CDs and has a auxiliary socket with a USB connection to enable you to plug in an i-Pod or similar.

The stereo is going to be one of the more important bits of kit on such a eco-car, as you aren't going to be enjoying sporty performance on any country lanes or the roar of a big bore engine as a sound-track to your journey. You're just going to be quietly and economically wafting along for mile upon mile and hour upon hour of planet hugging low acceleration and low speed driving... [sigh]... I'm going to miss punting my Accord around the Nürburgring or a deserted Scottish mountain pass. But the age of sensible, responsible, dependable, practical, environmental, (boring) driving is upon us all now so it may as well be in a car of the future, where you can watch the flowers grow on your dash to pass the time.

Now all I need is some money... Luckily, it looks like the UK government is going to follow the Germans and other Euro countries in offering a bribe to folk like me in the form of a scrappage-allowance. This is where they give you 2000 Pounds to trade in your old polluting car for a new eco-car (reducing the number of old "guzzlers" on the road and propping up the ailing car industry at the same time). I'll find out in the budget announcement in a couple of weeks if I'm going to be buying one of these Insights.
Sharkey
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Post by Sharkey »

So are you going to change your log in name to InsightGuy? :D
AccordGuy
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Post by AccordGuy »

The government here made their announcement yesterday but hybrid cars aren't "green" enough. They will (from 2011) offer a 2000-5000 Pound trade in scheme, but only in respect of electric-only cars.

So, I'll be keeping the Accord for a while yet. I can only afford to run one car and so it has to be one that can cross the UK and Europe. No pure EVs can hope to achieve that kind of range any time soon. The super-fast charge battery that has been talked about is (optimistically) 3-4 years away from commercialisation and that means a car designed to use it is at least 5 years away. That's the reason why the government isn't giving the hand-outs away until 2011 - they're waiting for the next crop of EVs that will use the Li-ion batteries that are just coming on to the market now to percolate down to the average family runabout car (basically when Ford make an electric Focus / Fiesta).

An interesting off-shoot of the Li-ion battery development is that in the shorter term you will see "extended range hybrids". Cars that (like the Insight) can use their battery some of the time instead of the petrol engine but the circumstances and duration of that use will become longer than possible with today's NiMH cells. The talk is of petrol cars that can do 170 mpg compared to the Insight that manages 60-70 mpg.

Detractors of current hybrids point to the fact that a small diesel car can already do 70 mpg in a car that costs half the price of a hybrid. The obvious answer is a small diesel-electric hybrid car. Although, preferably one built from a single car :D
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Post by Sharkey »

There are several reasons why a diesel-electric hybrid is going to be a long time coming, and why it won't supply as dramatic a savings in fuel as the petrol-electric hybrids did.

For one thing, electric motors are a better compliment to petrol engine technology. Electric motors have full torque at stall, while petrol engines have their peak horsepower at a comparatively high RPM. The electric assist is most helpful during acceleration when the petrol engine is needing the most help.

Diesel engines have a much more useable lower torque band, so coupling one to an electric motor doesn't give the same complimentary torque-vs.-RPM advantages that you get with petrol hybrids.

More importantly, one reason that the petrol hybrids get higher mileage is because the engines are really ~tiny~ for the application they are installed in. Without the electric assist, they would be dangerously slow. Undersizing the petrol engine has a significant savings in fuel, and the electric assist more than makes up for the lack of petrol horsepower.

Tiny diesel engines *don't* save much, if any more fuel than an adequately-sized diesel engine in the same chassis. Because diesel engines are already lean burn, -and- because they don't have throttle plates in the intake system to cause excessive pulling losses, an adequately-powered diesel engine driven conservatively will get essentially the same fuel economy as a tiny diesel driven flat out.

The same is not to be said for petrol engines, their efficiency goes up dramatically when they are operated at nearly wide-open throttle.

Witness the VW TDI engines. Driven for fuel savings, these cars mostly deliver 50-60 MPG, but have ~lots~ of reserve power for acceleration. In order to get the same performance from a petrol engine, it would have to be higher displacement, resulting in being throttled back more severely to reign in the power for economical operation, which itself results in lower efficiency, and hence lower economy.

I'm not saying that a diesel-electric hybrid isn't possible, but it probably won't be a parallel hybrid as the current models present, but a series hybrid so that the diesel can be optimized for operation at one RPM/torque range, and shut down when not needed. Better batteries and public acceptance of electric drive trains will make this closer to reality someday.

As for "new battery technologies" being just a few years away, I've heard this for the last 30 years. Anyone who bases their interest in pure a EV on that old delay tactic will still be waiting in another 30 years, in my opinion. "Better batteries" have always been just over the horizon. If you have interest in EV's and want to make a difference, jump in now with both feet and damn the "tomorrows". You'll get to begin enjoying the "EV grin" right away and have more than a few years of green transport before the high tech trickles down to the big automakers.
AccordGuy
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Post by AccordGuy »

Sharkey wrote:More importantly, one reason that the petrol hybrids get higher mileage is because the engines are really ~tiny~ for the application they are installed in. Without the electric assist, they would be dangerously slow. Undersizing the petrol engine has a significant savings in fuel, and the electric assist more than makes up for the lack of petrol horsepower.
When I first started driving, it was in a Fiat 126 with a 595cc 2-cylinder engine. You may as well have had a binary throttle control as you had to drive it either wide-open or off. It could do over 60 mpg but had a top speed of about 70 (but in the Mr Scott "she cannae take no more, Capt'n!!!" sense) and took about 30 seconds to make it to 60 mph. Standard equipment included binoculars for judging the required gap in the traffic to safely overtake a truck :roll:

I actually liked it though and bought another one. This had a 650cc engine, which meant it could drive up hills with the headlights on :D
AccordGuy
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Post by AccordGuy »

In the budget today, the government confirmed that a second car scrappage scheme will be starting from next month that will allow a 2000 Pound discount for trading in any car over 10 years old when buying a new car. So, I'll get to buy the Insight after all :)
AccordGuy
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Post by AccordGuy »

I've got my new Insight on order now 8)

I've been playing two dealers off each other. Both were playing the party line that with the scrappage deal you only get the discount off of list price and their margins are so small because hybrid tech is more expensive and blah blah blah...

Finally though one of them cracked and gave me an extra 500 Pounds off plus a hotel room for a night so we can go out to them on the coast and stay overnight before collecting the car. They even gave me 7 days free insurance so I don't have to arrange for my insurance company to switch over the cover immediately when dropping off my old car.

I'd increased my order to include a 5 year servicing package that costs 540 Pounds and I guess that's what they gave me for almost free in the deal. I figure they could do it because it's a national Honda service deal which means you can get the work done at any dealership. Being so far away from them they figured (rightly) that I'll never come back to them to get the work done so they can get the sales recognition from Honda that they sold a service package but another dealer has to do the actual work :D

I haven't told the local dealer yet that he's lost the sale and he'll be even more miffed when he realises he's got to service the car for 5 years without charging me any more money (although I'm sure they must claim it back from Honda centrally somehow).

Rather than buy it with a finance package (HP) I decided to use my flexible mortgage to raise the cash. Interest rates are only 1% now on my deal and I'll overpay my mortgage to pay the extra back in 3 years so it will be much cheaper than taking out a loan or going on dealer finance, both of which cost more than 9% in interest. I also didn't want to go on HP again as you never own the asset so you can't sell it if things go wrong.

Owning the asset outright will also mean it's easy for me to modify later. I'm thinking of getting a LPG mod to make it a dual fuel hybrid or a PHEV mod when they become available. Some Prius mods are now available to make them into plug-in hybrids with a full EV mode. As the Insight can already run for short times in EV mode (limited by the small battery pack) it wouldn't be too hard to install a bigger battery pack and modify the ECU to allow forced manual EV mode selection (instead of the opportunistic automatic hybrid mode it has now).

The same guys who have been selling "hot" ECU chips for performance will probably move into the hybrid market to do the re-coding required to enable a PHEV kit to work.

If I can get it to charge from my solar power then that would be the icing on the cake.
AccordGuy
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Post by AccordGuy »

Well here it is...

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I took a weeks holiday when the car was due to be ready. We stayed at the nice hotel in Lowestoft and even ate lobster. Lobster is usually really expensive but Lowestoft is a fishing town so it was cheaper than steak!

We toured around a bit after picking up the new car and sending my Accord to its grave [sniff] and I've been cruising around all over the country ever since (buying solar panels... but that's another story).

It does exactly what it says on the tin and I've been getting about 71mpg (UK gallons - 59mpg in US gallons).

There's a stretch of road on the way to my parents home that is flat or gently downhill and with a lot of traffic lights and 30mph speed cameras. If I drive at just under 30mph and go easy on accelerations, the car will start using battery power only. Then I can use the regenerative braking for the lights to recoup some charge before using a bit of petrol to get back up to speed and cruise on electric. So it does work!

You can tell what the power train is doing by a little animated graphic that shows the battery status and whether the car is using battery or petrol or both to move. It's nice when you see the petrol animation shut off and you're cruising just on electric.

Not only that but its dash lights up like a spaceship!

The one I tested didn't have the paddle shifters for the gears and while not really conducive to eco-driving, they are quite fun and useful for hill descents and so on where you want to stay in a particular gear ratio. You can also use the shifters in the normal Drive mode as well to modify its behaviour.

With the electric motor you get loads of low down torque (much more than a 1.3 litre petrol would provide) and so it's quite nippy in town. Even on long journeys (I've driven over 1000 miles this month - 330 of which for a business trip) and it's a comfortable cruiser. I had worried about how it would fare on long trips but it's fine. The engine is mostly very quiet and it has the biggest overdrive ratio of any car I've owned. It will quite happily go along at 55mph doing just 1600 RPM. If there's a hill that the electric motor can't power over then the CVT smoothly changes to a higher ratio and the RPMs will climb to 2000 or 2500 or whatever it takes to keep the cruise control speed set.

I bought an iPod to plug into the stereo and it has full integration with the steering wheel mounted track and volume controls, plus the radio display shows the track / artist / album info. Very cool!

Now if only I could get this 160W solar panel on the roof instead of inside the car, it would be perfect :)

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