The Hazards of Buying a Used Bus or: has my Karma gone sour?

[dburt]

Since aquiring my very decent, low priced, low original (71,300) mileage 1983 Ward/IH bus I have fretted about the all the room the engine compartment cover takes up in the front of the bus. It is a very tight squeeze just to get into the driver's seat. There are noise and heat issues, and when working on the engine you have to invade your potential living space to do oil changes, some maintenance rountines like changing fan belts, and working on the alternator or air pump, etc. However, a front engine bus lets you put a porch on the back, which is rather difficult if not downright impossible to do with a rear engine bus. But the rear engine bus is quiter, and more roomy in front, and when you are working on the engine, changing oil or fan belts etc you can do it from the outside and not invade the living area.

So: Yesterday I fell like a dim-witted rock for a locally advertized 1981 Thomas pusher bus, with a 3208 Cat and Allison 4-spd auto with 141,000 miles that was owned by a local church, and "just" $2,000. I did not feel like trying to beat up the church folks over the price, so I caved. (And I can sell my other bus for at least $2,000 to cover the cost of the new love, right?) Now you need to be aware that the main bus guy at the church is a corporate jet pilot for a big conglomerate here in the Northwest and he assured me that the maintenance on Old Yeller was always done on a regular basis and was up to par, the bus was road ready! Hey, he flies fast and high so he must care about how well his jets are maintained, he must know his buses too, correct? Now there was that rather loud squeal in the steering pump which I put down to low PS fluid, but no problem, I can quickly fix that, so I agreed to buy the bus. I paid the folks at the church and picked up two quarts of PS fluid and went back to get the bus. One and a half quarts later the squeal went away and the bus steering was back to normal. (Note to self: where was all the power steering fluid going? Hose leaks? Pump leak? Steering box leak? All three of the above?)

The drive home was uneventful, and I planned all the modifications I would make on this bus, and made a mental note of all the maintenance items I would check when I got home. (Mental note to self while rolling down the road- why did I not check engine oil and ATF fluid levels before I left? The jet jock DID say it was all good to go, did he not?) Oh well, I made it home ok. But when I checked engine oil it was down a gallon, barely showing on the stick. Hummm, wonder what the ATF was like? What do you know, it was not even showing on the stick! What about all that timely care and mainenance that was supposed to be up to par?? With fluid levels back to normal, I set out for the DMV about 20 miles away to do the title and registration thing this morning. After parting with more cash, I headed home to work on an item or two.

I had other errands to run today before I could work on the bus, so I parked the big yellow machine in front of the shop door, back of the bus to the door so I could back in and work on the engine items when I got back. A couple of hours later I returned home and I was ready to tackle some more routine items like checking the air filter, seeing why the tach cable was not hooked up to the drive coming off the end of the engine, etc. Opened the shop door, jumped in the driver's seat and turned the key. Nothing, zip, nada. You can start this bus from the rear engine compartment, so I went back and checked the batteries that were supposed to be "just one year old". (Actually they are almost 3 years old. The jet jockey had a mental disconnect here of some kind it appears.) Anyway, I cleaned the cables and posts, checked and the voltage was almost 13 volts, so why no start?? I hit the starter button at the back and all I got was a clicking in the starter solenoid. Oh great!

Long check out session reveals that the starter may be toast. Luckily there was still enough air in the tanks so that the brakes were not set, and I could push the bus with my tractor partway into the shop so I could work on the starter issue without being stuck on the gravel in the rain outside. First comes off the exhaust pipe from the manifold, so that the extremely heavy (perhaps 60+ lb) starter can be pulled out towards the rear of the bus and away from the engine block allowing it to come down. Whoever designed this engine and starter arrangement with the exhaust downtube so close must be a cretin! But- two hours later, a severely tried temper and lots of grease and dirt in the face, I have the starter on the floor. However it's now 6 pm and the two local auto electric shops are closed. Dagnabbit!

What the hey.... why is the bus leaning towards the left side? Whoa- I seem to have a flat tire! The outside dual is losing air at an alarming rate! Must have hit something on the highway? But I will have to tackle that after I get the starter back in and can move the bus over to the local tire shop. I hope the tire is ok, it is about 50% and I cannot really afford to buy a new one. On top of all of this, I cannot find my 7/16th small open end Craftsman wrench that I use on smaller bolts, etc. and I really like and need that wrench. A sweep of the shop turns up nothing. Now I am starting to get really cranky!

There must be a moral to this story. Hey, I think I know what it is- I should have stuck with my good old original bus and built my porch on the back! Or, beware of low mileage church buses that are well maintained.

[Rudy]

DB, It's too bad that guy skunked you when he said the Thomas was well maintained. Now you have two buses. I can't offer any advice on which one to keep. Obviously, you have weighed advantages against disadvantages. The 3208 is a real good engine, from what I have heard. If you think that it has not been ruined by lack of maintenance, you could expand your list of pros and cons between the two. I would really rather have a pusher because of the noise the engine makes up front. I will someday build a box over the cowling in hopes that I can decrease that noise. I really like my bus and will put up with it's inadequacies. I never envisioned building a little porch in the back. It would be handy to put a lot of things on, but then, I would have to deal with not obscuring the taillights. I am a little guy, and even I have to do some fancy stepping to get into the driver's seat. I am curious to see which one you will keep. Have you done any interior work on the IH? Or any mechanical work on it as well? Keep us informed. Perhaps you could post some photos of the two. OH, I paid $3000 for the Blue Bird. I thought it was a good price. Fortunately, I had money back then.

Rudy

[Mark R. Obtinario]

If the IHC/Ward bus has the DT466 there is no question as to which bus I would choose, even though I really don't like the Ward body buses that were built in the '80's and early '90's.

If it has the 6.9/7.3/T444 engine I would drop it like a rock for the Thomas.

Blue Bird had available a pad to cover the engine dog house. It was a thick foam pad covered with the same upholstery as the seats. It was held onto the doghouse with snaps.

It made a huge difference in reducing the noise.

However, if you have a Cat 3208 there isn't much you can do to get the noise level down--it is one of the loudest engines out there.

[dburt]

Mark, are you saying you favor the IH/Ward with the DT466 or the Thomas with the 3208 Cat engine? Today I went over to the local school district in Nyssa, Oregon and visited with the transportation director who I had gotten to know about 5 years ago when I bought a nice Bluebird front engine flat nose with a 5.9 Cummins and an Allison auto from the district. Talking with him and his head mechanic who came into the office, they both said they favored the DT466 engine over the 3208. They run about 15 buses, and have both front and rear engine flatnose buses, and several conventional front engine buses. But they liked the sound of the Thomas with the rear engine.

Crumb dummley, I wish I had the DT466 in the Thomas! I have about $1,700 invested in the Ward now, vs about $2,100 in the Thomas with a starter fix bill coming up, plus the flat rear tire to contend with. The Thomas has 11.00X20 tires, which are a little harder to find then 22.5 tires, but a little cheaper too. Still, they run about $325 in this neck of the woods for a new standard tread tire.

I have another good friend up in the small NE Oregon town of Lostine and he runs a large fleet of buses, and has for 50 years. Both school and charter buses. He loves the 3208 Cat engine, and says with proper care they will go 3-400,000 miles in a school bus. I think the engine is ok even with lack of recent routine maintenance. Oil pressure is good, no leaks, sounds strong, runs well. I took the starter into the local auto electric shop this AM and wouldn't you know it, on the test stand it worked fine! But the tech said it could have a loose lead or connection inside, and he would check it out and I could get it tomorrow.

I began to have a feeling that perhaps I had violated one of my own cardinal rules to always look for the simple and obvious problems first- which, in this case, would have included checking the neutral start safety switch located on the transmission housing. Oh well, I will know that I have a good starter after getting it back on the engine, and if still no start- then the neutral start safety switch will get the going over.

Once I have this starting issue covered, then I can get the flat tire fixed and get Old Yeller mobil again. Then the big decision, keep the Thomas and sell the IH/Ward? Or keep the Ward and sell the Thomas? You know something, they would actually make great mobil green houses! And a person can buy buses like these for less then you might spend on constructing a green house! Hmmm.... more food for thought! (no pun intended)

Rudy, I had not started doing anything on the IH/Ward bus yet. Just an oil and filter change, lube and minor maintenance items. The Thomas is about 38.5 feet long and the Ward is 35 feet long. I think the Thomas actually has a little more useable space inside. The Ward with the DT466 seems to have a little more power, due to the fact it weighs about 2,500 lbs less then the Thomas. The folks I have talked to say the DT466 will get better fuel mileage then the 3208. Like 10mpg vs 8mpg. By the way, I found the steering box adjustment screw on the side of the box on the Thomas, I loosened the lock nut and turned the screw in about 1/2 a turn. The Thomas seems to have a little more play in the steering wheel then I like, and I hope this helps tighten it up some. The school district mechanic told me to try tightening up the screw about a 1/4 turn at a time until the steering was better, but not to tighten it up too much and cause it to bind. I'll post this with pics of the two buses, and keep you all posted on what happens. Feel free to post your thoughts and advice!

[Rudy]

DB, What works for me when I want to post a picture is, first make a new tab. Then go to TinyPic on that tab. When TinyPic is loaded, click where it says, choose file. That will bring you to your picture files. Find the picture you want and double click it. Then you will see the file name next to where it had said, choose file. Then click, upload now. Sometimes you have to wait a little at this point. When it has successfully uploaded, there will appear four http lines of numbers and letters. Those are the four categories for what you want to do with that picture. Click on the one that says, for posting to forums. That line will turn black. While your cursor is still on that line, right click on that line and click copy. Then go back to your post on the forum. Now right click again and click paste. What you will see then is the http line that you copied earlier. To view what the picture will look like on your post, click preview. Now you should have the words you have written and be able to see the picture. You can now either add more pictures ( the same way) or click submit to add your post to the forum. I like to leave two spaces between the words and the photos, or if you want to have more than one photo in your post, leave two spaces between them. I hope this helps you out. Rudy

[Sharkey]

Fixed yer images, there is supposed to be a dot (period) between the subdomain and tinypic.com:

http://i33.tinypic.com/6ekpkm.jpg

[dburt]

Thank you Sharkey for fixing things for me! It was late at night when I was trying to post the pictures, so that is my excuse for leaving out the dot. Just plain old fatigue! (I really hate to admit how technologically challenged I really am!) And Rudy, thanks for your advice on how to post those pictures right to begin with!

[Mark R. Obtinario]

The basic problem with the Cat 3208 is it was built to be cheap and was not considered a heavy duty engine by any stretch of the imagination. But, because it is a Cat and everything Cat is Cat gold, you need a lot of gold to keep it happy.

The pistons were cast in an oval shape with the idea that when they warmed up they would round out.

In most applications that worked out fine. In most school bus applications it didn't due to the fact most school buses don't run that far between the times they shut the engine down. As a consequence, the pistons didn't warm up enough to round out and tended to wear the cylinders out in an oval fashion.

Most old 3208's smoke like crazy when started and quit smoking once they warm up. But in school buses, then never stop smoking.

If your 3208 doesn't smoke much then you have a pretty good engine that has quite a bit of life left in it.

6-8 MPG is about the best you can expect out of a 3208. Anyone that says they are getting better than 8 MPG isn't telling the whole story.

[Mark R. Obtinario]

Ward vs. Thomas.

IHC DT466 vs. Cat 3208.

A lot of times when comparisons are made it is hard to get good opinions because lots of times the comparisons are tainted by prejudices that are similar to the Chevy vs. Ford comparisons.

In my case, I don't like Ward body buses and I don't like Cat engines.

Ward body buses built in the 80's and 90's were the el cheapo buses of the time. They were assembled with the barest of bare minimums to meet the spe'c's.

The split sash windows were put together so cheap you could slide a finger between the sashes because they weren't at all tight.

Most were put together without wood under the linoleum--noisy, cold, and over time the metal under floor would stretch so you could see each floor stringer.

The body sheet metal was of inferior quality, grade, and gauge compared to other manufacturers. In the rust belt you never see old Ward buses of this vintage--they are all rusted down around the axles.

The seats had thinner upholstery, thinner padding, and lighter frameworks.

The Ward buses had less headroom as standard than most of the other buses of the time.

Once Navistar/IHC took over Ward and renamed them IC buses in the mid-90's the Ward buses became what they had been back in the 60's--a real quality bus. And the new ones are probably the best bus on the road.

Thomas buses have consistently been a good bus regardless of model year. Once Thomas stopped using vendor supplied chassis for their Type 'D' buses (flat nose) the Saf-T-Liner became a contender to replace the Crown or Gillig as the best top end bus.

The Saf-T-Liner came standard with what was optional or not available on the Ward of that vintage. Everything about it is heavier duty. And everything was put together in a much more quality fashion.

The only thing I would not like about your Thomas is it has the Cat 3208.

In a comparison between a DT466 and a Cat 3208 there is no comparison, the DT466 will win hands down every time.

The DT466 has been around in various forms and applications for the better part of 50 years. It utilizes heavy duty, long service designs which the 3208 doesn't have. It comes standard with a turbo which most 3208's didn't have.

Probably the biggest difference is the inline vs. V-type design. When you climb a hill the inline engines pull away from the V-types every time.

At the school district I worked we had two Blue Bird rear engine Type 'D' buses with the 250 HP 3208. We also had a bunch of conventionals with the 210 HP DT466.

The BB's would scream down the highway but at every hill would start dropping gears.

The DT's were governed to 58 MPH but would go that speed on I-5 regardless of the length or steepness of the hill and would usually arrive at the same time or sooner than the BB's.

The ideal combination would be to take the power package out of the Ward and put it into the Thomas. You would have the better power package and the better body all in one package.

In regards to tires, the 11:00X20 tires are less expensive until you factor in the price of the tube. And your Dayton/Spoke/California wheels are hard to get balanced because it is very difficult to find anyone that can balance the wheel on the bus--most balance machines can't balance Dayton wheels.

[dburt]

Mark- the IH/Ward was a US government surplus bus, therefore the low (and cheapest made?) bidder got the bid that year! That would account for the Ward bus being in government service! Your advice and info is really good. Even at 141,000 miles I notice that the Thomas 3208 does smoke when cold, but clears up when warm. Maby it is still a good engine?? But you are spot on about the power, the Ward DT466 seems to have more power, due to the turbo? The Thomas does seem to be a much heaver bus in most respects, and that may also play a factor in it being slower to accelerate to speed. It seems to be governed to about 55mph also.

I know what you mean about CAT gold. It is the same with John Deere tractors and all things Deere. They don't paint the John Deere tractors the color of money for nothing!

Maby I should sell both buses and look for a rear pusher with a DT466. There was one on EbayMotors the other day- a '98 model AmTran with about 97K on the odometer back in Indiana, it ony got bid up to $1,500! Baring any unkonwn problems, that was a good deal it appears. But the cost of taking the time, fuel, airline ticket, etc to get it back out west kept me from bidding. I wish I could find something like that out here.

To update the Thomas mechanical issues-
I got the starter back yesterday, and reinstalled it. Checked everything I could find. Hit the starter button and she fired right up. And the auto electric shop could find nothing wrong with it! Go figure! Chalk this one up to gremlins? At least I know what is involved to to RR a 3208 starter. And it is one heavy pup!

Later I headed down to the tire shop to have the left rear outside dual repaired. Turns out there was a patch on the inside of the tire rubbing the tube which produced a small hole. $30 later and the tire/tube repaired I was ready to leave. But what is this?- all the air was dumped while sitting there, no air pressure, brakes locked up, can't move. I start the bus up, and wait for air pressure but it does not go above 50lbs, not enough to move. One of the guys from the tire shop sticks his head under the driver's front side of the bus and hears an air leak. Finds a small air hose that appears to have been cut off and plugged. It is spitting out the last of the RTV silicone. We could find no evidence of a plug or clamp. So we found a small screw that we could thread into the end of the hose to stop the leak as best as we could to get me home to the shop where I could insert a better plug and use a hose clamp.

One issue remains unresolved. The steering box leaks power steering fluid out of what appears to be a small vent hole above the steering adjustment lock nut and screw on the side of the box. It seems to have a small rubber insert with a hole in it which dribbles power steering fluid. The hoses do not appear to leak. This has me baffled so far. It does explain why the power steering fluid was low when I bought the bus.

I finally got the ATF fluid topped off, it took 6 quarts. That is 1.5 gallons low! So much for the "this bus has had good regular maintenance and is ready to go!" You apparently can't trust anyone's word, even the good folks at the church who I bought the bus from were affected with "impaired memory syndrome".

Mark, any more good advice on the best bus to own is appreciated. If you have more insights, please share them! I am sure the rest of us would be glad to "go to school" on your experience. If time, money etc were no issues, which is the best school bus in your opinion to convert to a motorhome? (After the Crown of course!) But maby you could give us your first three choices based on age, best engine/transmission choices, durability, etc etc.

[dburt]

Based on my limited experience with a 1991 Blue Bird flat nose front engine bus with a 5.9 Cummins that I once owned and sold and the current Ward/IH and Thomas buses that I have, I have now put both buses on Boise's Craiglist to see which bus will sell first (or even both of them) and look for a rear engine flat nose DT466 powered pusher bus. Mark's good comments and observations coupled with the advice I have sought from the local school district's bus folks have caused me to learn alot and focus on what would be the best engine choice and power layout for my own plans and budget. With bus prices down right now due to the economy, I think I have my two buses priced right and perhaps I can find another one priced right that will serve my needs. But if I sell one and not the other, then I will just live with that outcome too. We will see what happens. Now that I have the Thomas more or less sorted out, it should be a good bus for someone to do a conversion to a mobile dwelling of some kind. And the Ward/IH is a good bus price wise and mechanically sound so someone could do a pretty decent mobile dwelling conversion on that one also.

[Mark R. Obtinario]

The main problem in the bus world is there is no good one size fits all bus. Regardless of which bus you choose it won't do all things well.

There are basically four different kinds of buses with several variations in each kind.

The four basic kinds of buses--school, transit, highway, and commercial.

If you plan on doing lots of highway miles the only good choice is a highway bus--high HP engines with highway gears, lots of underfloor compartments, good headroom, some have 102" wide bodies, poor ground clearance, top heavy, great for the interstate not so good on secondary roads.

If you plan on driving very little a good choice would be a transit bus--high ceilings, 102" wide bodies, usually geared for city and not very suitable for highway use, not a lot space under floor for anything.

If you ever plan on going off pavement or plan on a lot of secodary roads the school bus is a great choice--lots of ground clearance, all of the secondary roads have school buses running on them every day, some came with highway gears with HP to do the job, some came with underfloor compartments, only have 96" wide bodies, some have only 74" ceilings.

Commercial buses are the type you see around the airport--not a good choice for any application--light duty or medium duty chassis trying to do heavy duty use, lots of composite construction that is expesive to repair and hard to reconfigure, poor ground clearance and not a lot of space under the floor for anything.

Once you decide on what type of bus you want you then have to winnow the candidates down to the specific bus you want.

The most expensive parts of the bus are the power package and the bus body. It doesn't matter how good the bus is, if the power package is no good pass on it unless you can find another identical bus with a good power package but bad body you can get for parts. If there is any rust pass on it unless the price is so low the cost of repair is not going to be more than a similar bus with no rust.

Most buses if you have to get into the power package it is going to cost you $$$$$! You can spend $6-12K for an automatic transmission. Double that cost for an engine.

I prefer the mid-mount engine in school buses because the smallest engine is larger than almost every engine available in rear engine buses and every engine in front engine buses.

I do not like front engine Type 'D' buses because of the noise factor and the gymnastics required to hop over the dog house.

Don't worry about the tires at the time of purchase, just make sure the cost of the bus includes the tires (some bus companies lease the tires and the tires won't be going with the bus). If you spend any time converting your bus the tires on the bus as the time of purchase are going to be of no use once you get ready to head down the road.

The one thing to consider about tires is what size is on the bus. Tubeless tires are preferred and standard sizes are preferred. If you ever have tire problems out on the road and have to purchase an odd size tire you can end up paying more for one tire than you would for a whole set of common sized tires.

The most common big truck/bus tire size out there today is the 11:00X22.5.

10-hole Budd type wheels are preferred because they are more common and offers you lots of upgrades if you so desire.

CA and AZ buses rarely have any rust.

CO school buses are required to have auxillary braking systems--really makes a big difference in brake costs.

WA school buses have as standard equipment more options than almost any other state.

OR school buses generallly do not have side emergency doors. They only have emergency exits.

My personal preferences if I were to convert a bus would be to look for a bus with an inline engine with an automatic. The inline engines will out pull V-type engines of much greater HP/torque ratings. Automatics just make life easier and would allow my wife to drive the bus as well (she doesn't drive stick shifts).

Probably the most reliable and cheapest to keep medium duty diesel engine out there is the IHC DT466/530 engine.

If you have a choice among Cummins engines the 8.3L/ISC is the engine of choice. The 5.9L/ISB, even in the higher HP versions, just doesn't do the job as well on steep hills. A 250 HP ISB drives like a real weak sister compared to a 250 HP ISC. Of course, the Cummins 855/Big Cam engines are THE engines to choose. As the hot rodders will tell you, you can't beat cubic inches.

I will freely admit I don't like Cat power in trucks and buses. And I particularly do not like the 3208.

The ideal bus IMHO would be a two axle 35-40' mid-enigne Crown or Gillig with the 855 Cummins--lots of HP for highway cruising with a properly sized cooling system so you won't overheat when climbing long hills on hot summer afternoons. I like the look of the 10-wheelers but the third axle takes up a lot of space, weighs a lot, and in a conversion you usually don't need the extra weight carrying capacity. The Crown and Gillig school coaches (notice I didn't say school bus?) were built to a much higher standard than the east cost bus builders. As a consequence, they stand up to the test of time much better.

Next down the list would be a Thomas Saf-T-Liner rear engine. The Thomas MVP is a low cost version of the Saf-T-Liner and is still a good bus but they went cheap on a lot of expensive parts--power package, suspension, axles, etc. The Westcoaster was a specific option package to compete directly with Crown and Gillig--they went really heavy duty on the expensive parts.


Next down the list or equal to the Thomas would be an IC/RE with the DT530 or DT466. An IC/RE with a DT530 is going to cost a lot because they have only been making them available in just the last 3-5 years. A lot more HP/torque than the DT466 in an engine that is basically the same as the DT466. I would only consider the AmTrans made after the early '90's. Before the early '90's, regardless if the name said Ward or AmTrans, the buses were junk when new.

Next down the list would be Blue Bird. And that is only because of personal preference. Every BB I have ever driven, no matter how new or old always rattled. No Crown or Gillig and very few Thomas buses I have driven ever rattled.

Stay away from any Carpernter, Crown by Carpenter, Carpenter Crown buses. The last ones were recalled with significant problems in the roof bows, the name had no connection to the Crowns made in California, and outside of the engines and transmissions the buses were junk when new. Older Carpenters, as in pre-1985 models, were pretty good buses if you were looking at Type 'C' buses (conventionals).

Superior and Wayne were good cheap buses. But both have been out of business more than 20 years so anything made by them are going to be really showing their age. While a Crown or Gillig could actually do 30 years of service, most of the eastern built buses were pretty much spare parts by the time they were 20 years old.

Stay away from any of the Type 'D' buses on vendor supplied chassis (OshKosh, National, GMC, IHC, Ford, etc). Back in the day they were a very cheap alternative to Crown and Gillig. They were usually put together with every cast off part truckers wouldn't have if they were served up on a golden platter. As a consequence the parts and pieces to keep them running are few and far between (read that as $$$$$$). Can you say custom made parts from a machine shop?

As you noted bus prices are way down.

Currently you can still find some MCI MC-12 buses with good power packages for under $15K. Good running MCI MC-8 and MC-9 buses can be purchased for less than $7K. You can purchase a fleet of transit buses for $15K. And yellow buses that aren't very old and with lots of service life in them can be purchased for less than $10K.

Good luck on your quest.

[dburt]

Great advice and info Mark!! I plan on using the bus for a camper type vehicle, at this point I don't intend to live in it full time like Rudy does in his. So there would be times I would be going down gravel roads to a campground, and ground clearance is a plus there. I wish my Thomas had the DT466 in it. I even fleetingly thought of what a swap would entail with the IH/Ward. So perhaps I would be better off trying to sell both buses and find a Thomas with the DT466 power package. Some buses that come up for sale on EbayMotors have the 3126 Cat engine in the pusher buses. Is that a good engine? Of course one of my considerations is fuel mileage, and the DT466 does not do too bad in that department. 6-8mpg from a 3208 puts a real squeeze on the wallet for me. Do you have a bus project Mark?

[Mark R. Obtinario]

The only bus in which you will find a DT466 is an IC bus or a conventional bus with an IHC chassis.

The 3126 is an okay engine but they have had a lot of problems with the electronics on them. Not for sure what or if the bugs have been worked out. But it falls into the category of it is a Cat and I don't like Cat engines unless they are in a Cat tractor.

I sold my bus project because I knew I wouldn't have the time or $$$ with a toddler in our house.

Swapping an inline into a hole a V-type was in can create a lot of interesting fit issues.

[brian]

On your RE bus the engine/transmission should be on a removable cradle. Outside of it being heavy, putting the DT466 in for the Cat should be easy (if you have some metal working skills.)
I wouldn't try to put the Cat in the doghouse bus, though it could be done.

You could have a wonderful potential grow house.
It all depends on how much money you have, room to park large vehicles, & tolerance for rusting ferric items.