NOMADICISTA

Hi guys!

I've been fascinated by the idea of housetrucks since attending the shambhala music festival in Salmo, BC, and seeing all the old buses that had been converted by ingenious neo-hippie characters. One guy (Quebecois named Serge, anyone know him?) was driving a 1939 International schoolbus, with a glass plane cockpit stuck on the top, which I thought was rather clever.

I have the "Some turtles have nice shells" book, and Lloyd Kahns "Builders of the West Coast", and have been dreaming of building a housetruck based on the esthetics of both. Cedar shingles, driftwood, something that would fit in on Vancouver Island.

I have some logistical and mechanical question for the old-timers here (or just well informed).

For building on a truck, what's a good length/size to start with? 1 ton? 2 ton? I don't need something huge, it's just for me and my boyfriend.

Gas vs/ Diesel?

What's the most reliable vehicle to start with? I don't have a lot of mechanical training, the only car i've worked on is my '68 bug.

I love old trucks, but I realize they may not be the smartest choice to slap a heavy cumbersome house onto. Would it make more sense to use a newer trucks engine and chassis, and just cover it with a classic cab? *Can* an old cab fit over modern engines? Or would it just be easier to spend a bit more on a well-maintained older truck?

I've seen a lot of old firetrucks that are in really nice shape, and was thinking about using one of those.


And of course:


How much have you spent on the initial building of your truck/bus?
Those that used all new materials, and those that used salvage material. I'd probably scope most stuff from craigslist and junk piles, but it's nice to know a top and bottom estimate.



Also, seen this? http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/

Hi Kai;

You'll probably get a variety of opinions, but that's good, you can choose which best suits your plans.

First, here's a short question-and-answer from this site:
http://www.mrsharkey.com/busbarn/fqa.htm , might answer a few right off the top.

Then, here's your dose of information overload for the day (and probably the week): www.pardo.net/bus-0035/buses.html , lots more than you asked, and then some.

Your specific questions:

1) Size: That's up to you, but DON'T go too small on the chassis. An overloaded truck is slow, wallows in the turns, wanders all over the road in the wind, and will be prone to breakdowns. Unless you travel ~very~ light, a two-to-four ton truck should be the smallest weight capacity you should consider. Then it's just a matter of how much length you can deal with for maneuverability and parking

2) Fuel: Diesel, definitely diesel. More torque, better fuel economy, better reliability, less problems with varnish from sitting (no carburetor to gum up). There are essentially zero options for renewable/alternative fuel for gas engines. (Biodiesel is ~way~ the way to go! Avoid all SVO/WVO/straight veggie grease in your diesel like the plague!!!)

3) Classic vs. Contemporary: Funky is cool, but finding parts is a pain. Funky breaks down more often. Contemporary is the way to go on the running gear, but putting a classic cab on a modern chassis is a high-dollar enterprise, hope you have a big bankroll.

4) Fire apparatus is a good bet. It always has a rather poor resale value in spite of having been kept in the best condition possible. Ditch the ladder body and build from the frame.

5) Cost: In the olden days, you could do it on a shoestring. Probably still can, but I've grown accustomed to having some modern conveniences like heat, insulation, and running water. All cost a bit more to install nowadays. I've probably got $25,000 into the Crown and it's still not done.

6) Brakes: You didn't ask, but anything you buy absolutely has to have air brakes. Letting a truck/bus sit will allow a hydraulic brake system to get soggy and fail. Air brakes don't care how long they sit.

Good luck with it, starting from scratch means anything possible at this point!

"3) Classic vs. Contemporary: Funky is cool, but finding parts is a pain. Funky breaks down more often. Contemporary is the way to go on the running gear, but putting a classic cab on a modern chassis is a high-dollar enterprise, hope you have a big bankroll. "

Hmmm...would it be a good idea to perhaps purchase an old, rust-free truck with a good transmission, and then swap in a newer diesel engine? I've seen engine swaps done with VW's and subarus, that way you get the best of both worlds. Classic looks with a reliable, fuel-efficient heart.

this has more interest than the average 4x4: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/s ... hp?t=52844

boss, hippy chick, too!

Kai wrote:"would it be a good idea to perhaps purchase an old, rust-free truck with a good transmission, and then swap in a newer diesel engine?

Oh sure, anything is possible given enough time and money.

Take, for example, Eric's Federal housetruck.



After building the house part, complete with stained glass and two side-outs, he pulled the original flathead six cylinder gasoline engine and replaced it with a Caterpillar diesel:



Such a project isn't for the faint of heart, though. The diesel was larger than the gas engine, and he had to come up with some "creative" solutions to some knotty problems, like running the steering shaft on the exterior of the truck frame with multiple universal joints. Even with this, the front tires rubbed on the steering box on tight turns.



The report is that the truck outruns everything on the road with the new engine!

As for swapping the complete running gear, I seem to remember someone posting either pictures or links to pictures of someone who purchased a brand new Dodge 1 ton diesel truck, removed the pickup truck cab and bed, and replaced it with a funky old shorty school bus. Anyone remember where to find that?

None of this is trivial, it amounts to building a custom vehicle with all the problems that such a project entails. Modern chassis are a rat's nest of wiring, all of which connects to the all-important engine management computer. One bad conection or left-out wire puts the whole running gear out of commission.

A new tuck chassis and engine with the old Federal body is Roger's dream for his old housetruck. All sparking-new, still warrantied engine, trans, etc, with a classic cab, complete with air conditioning

Sharkey is quite correct when he calls for a diesel engine, a minimum of a 2-ton chassis, air brakes, and a more modern chassis unless your pockets are very deep!

We all dream of an old Diamond T truck, or an IH farm truck with that classic old hippy style cedar shingle style house on the back. But reality says you need a good solid foundation to build it on. An ideal platform to start with would be an IH 4-ton chassis, many are the basis for farm trucks and come up for sale often. Most have or had a 20 or 22 foot bed on the back, you could safely add up to a 4-ft frame extension on the back to give yourself up to 26 feet of solid foundataion to work on. Most of these trucks have the super reliable IH DT466 diesel engine, and have air brakes. These truck frames, axles and springs are quite capable of carrying 20,000+ pounds without breaking a sweat.

When I indulge in my favorite pipe dream of building the ultimate hippy style motor home, I go back and forth between a good conventinal front engine IH diesel bus with the DT 466, air brakes and the HD Allison MT643 auto tranmission or a farm style truck. The bus advantages? The basic shell is there already, so no walls to build, plus the floor is already laid in place. You can lift the roof if needed, or add funky things like old VW bus tops, old car bodies, or "vista dome" type rooms above the bus- just stay under 14-feet overall height!

The truck advantage? You can start with a clean canvas to really build your ultimate fantasy house. You don't have to build around or with the bus walls, you can get very creative with style, materials, and floor plan.
You also have to take into account building a very solid frame work that will withstand flexing, road shock, etc.

What is the bottom line? Your pocket book and your own taste. And how creative you want to be.

Ah, the choices are endless........

hey great points you make, i have a 1938 IHC gypsy wagon on this site. the gvw of the truck is 13100 and my house weighs in 11900. in my opinion this is a good size to work off of although with fuel costs diesel is a great option. this conversion gets 5 mpg up and down hills around home, i have yet to take it on the highway and see how it would do at 50-55 for long periods. it does have a 5 speed transmission and a black diamond 308(legendary school bus engine) for power. it is slow up hills but ok considering the size of the truck, it has a two speed rear end with a 4.75 to one ratio. let me know of any questions if you decide to go the classic truck route, i have many leads on parts and trucks themselves. check out my construction photos under the bus barn, more trucks, kevins gypsy wagon, good luck and thanks to all for your regular input. kevin in ct

Since you are starting from scratch the list is endless as far as possibilities. They are only limited by your pocketbook.

I would agree with Sharkey that diesel is the only way to go as far as fuel is concerned. I would go another step further and say mechanically controlled diesel is the only way to go.

Starting in the early to mid '90's all diesel engines started to become electronically controlled. The upside is the electronic controls squeeze out every last MPG out of every drop of fuel. The downside is when the electronic controls stop working nothing works.

The electronic controls are very particular about working within a set of parameters and won't work if the battery is low. Which happens on a regular basis to vehicles that sit around a lot.

The other real advantage of using a more modern vehicle platform is the engine and transmission are better able to travel at highway speed.

Back in the day when Crown and Gillig were the be all and end all in yellow buses, they were the only buses that were capable of highway speeds. And I am not talking about the 55 MPH National Speed limit either. None of the gas powered school buses I ever drove could maintain 55 MPH unless they were going downhill. They either didn't have the HP or their gearing tached the engine out below 55 MPH. And the gas powered ones that came close to maintaining 55 MPH were lucky to 3 MPG while doing it.

If I were going to convert a truck I would start out with a Class 8 truck. It would have more than enough HP to travel easily up any hill at highway speed and do it at 10 MPG or better. All Class 8 trucks have had air brakes since WWII. Most Class 8 trucks also have rear air suspensions which will make the ride nicer. Regardless of the wheelbase when you purchase the truck you can easily stretch them out a looooooooooong way. And if you go for one of the classic Pete, KW, or Freightliner cabs you can make them look like they did back in the day.

If you really want a classic truck or bus swapping modern running into one is a formidable task. It is best not undertaken if you don't have the mechanical skill to do so.

The easiest and most cost efficient way to accomplish a swap would be to find the classic you want and find another vehicle to be the donor. At that point you can decide if it would be easier to swap bodies or swap running gear.

If you decide to swap running gear the most cost efficient donor would be a school bus. Many school buses are showing up in the used market now with the DT466 or Cummins 5.9L/8.3L engines with prices not that much over the price of scrap. In the swap you would want to swap everything including the axles. The axles mostly because most modern school buses have heavier running gear than what they had thirty plus years ago and the cut angle on the front axle is usually much greater than almost any other vehicle on the road. You will also need to swap the wiring harness if the engine and transmission are electronically controlled. Without the electrical harness you will have no way in which to make the engine run or the transmission to shift.

At the end of the day it is your project and only you can decide what will work best for you.

Good luck.

That's some very helpful information, thanks for passing it on. Class 8 trucks look to be extremely large, almost too large for my purposes. If I were to do a engine and running gear swap, would school bus innards work with a smaller truck, something the size of a f700 or f800? Once again, I have little non VW mechanical knowledge, so this is a learning exercise for me.

Thinking about it, yeah, i can see how much work it would take to swap out an engine and running gear into a old truck. Conversely, I guess it would equally hard to figure out how to fit an empty cab over a newer trucks engine, and I'm guessing wiring/steering would be a mess. I'm gonna keep looking for an old truck, but try to find one that's been "restored" for daily driver use. I've seen a few smaller ones that have updated gearing for highway speeds. Buying a restored truck will be more expensive, but it'd cut down on a lot of headaches. Owning a bug has taught me it's always easier to buy a vehicle that's already *had* a bunch of hard work put into it, rather than trying to do it yourself. DIY seems to always end up costing more...

Most school buses are based on "Medium Duty" truck chassis. The service life of these types of vehicles is considered to be 10 years/2-300,000 miles. Over-the-Road class 8 trucks are better described as 20 year/1,000,000 mile vehicles.

If you find a classic truck that still enjoys parts and service support, then there is no reason to not go for it, just don't fall in love with some exotic, one-off model that no one has ever heard of and parts, if you can get them, are so expensive that it makes you cry every time it needs an oil filter or tune-up.

Swapping engines/transmissions between medium-duty truck/bus chassis isn't impossible, and if you have done engine swaps before, you'll have a good idea what to expect.

Mark is right about sticking to mechanically injected diesels. Electronic engine controls have made diesel engines more powerful and cleaner burning, but the computers can be finicky, and most swaps using them will probably end up needing some troubleshooting and trickery to make the computer think it's still living in a modern chassis..

I have a friend who specializes in swapping VW TDi engines into Vanagons. He has to put the entire instrument cluster, ignition switch, etc into the vehicle in order for the computer to play nice with the engine. Imagine the wiring necessary to accomplish this. All manner of sensors have to be present for the engine to run at all. If the computer isn't happy, you're sitting alongside the road, and good luck having a shop look at your computer if it's mounted in a 1950's cab and chassis! It takes the right mechanic to want to get involved in someone else's custom project.

Mechanical diesels need only two things to run, a signal from the ignition switch to open the stop solenoid, and a "start" voltage when you turn the key to that position. Nothing else matters to them, and once they're running, the stop solenoid voltage can come from flashlight batteries. Your entire electrical system can be fried, but you won't be stuck.

The downside is that mechanical turbodiesels make copious amounts of black smoke when accelerated hard off the line. This is one of the advantages of ECM, the injection pump doesn't supply any more fuel than the engine can burn efficiently given the RPM and boost pressure. More modern diesels will have EGR valves, catalytic converters, etc. so your pollutant levels will be more acceptable as well.

There actually are well-kept or partially restored classic trucks out there. As Mark points out used school buses are practically selling for a dime a dozen. One interesting point about shcool bus chassis, is that most times, the hood and front fenders are terminated at the front of the passenger compartment by a flat wall. This has been the practice since the very early days. If you chose a late model bus with this design, fitting vintage hood and fenders might actually be a fairly simple task, and you wouldn't have to mess around with (much) wiring, and no steering/pedals/etc to monkey with.

For example, look at Jeannie's Reo:



Flat firewall connecting in one plane with the hood and fenders. The bus body could be a 2007 Thomas with late model International running gear. The hood and fenders just cover the front, but give the late model bus a vintage apperance. (For the record, Jeannies bus is all vintage, I just chose it because it showed the firewall clearly)

Same thing with Greg's White:



Oney's Dodge:



Let's get Rudy to google up some images of late model buses with flat firewalls, then you can start shopping!

[edit] OK, Lookit what I found:



What can I say, I'm a genius!



OMG, I laughed so hard I think I hurt myself!!!!

Modern body and running gear, cobble the front sheet metal from a (basically worthless) old vintage school bus - viola! Instant steampunk dwelling!

More modern bus photos here: http://www.atlanticbusyard.com/ [/edit]

Here is a good example of a class 8 truck (an older one for that vintage look ) with only 385,000 original miles on it. The 5th wheel has been removed, and a person could add 6 feet to the rear of the frame for a great HD platform to build on. It's an ex-county truck from the Malhuer County, Oregon Road dept and was used it's entire life as a sander. Has a nice tight cab, 35% rubber. I looked at this truck just today! If only I had more time, money, and a larger shop to work in........

If you think these two trucks look to modern- well, both of these trucks have tilt up hoods, so a person could fabricate an older looking truck front end to fit where the exsisting hood goes, and you could "do a Sharkey" look!
If only we could do real fabrication as easily as Sharkey did the work up for the front of that bus- it cracks me up to see that picture!!



Here is a good example of a medium duty truck that a person could have a 24-foot long base frame to build on, plus the cab over part.

Both of these trucks are for sale at Young's Equipment Sales in Nampa, Idaho (about 30 miles west of Boise) 208-467-2019

I would stay away from anything that has a 2-cycle DD for a couple of reasons.

The first, the smog nazis are making it very difficult to run these in a lot of urban areas.

The second, which will have a greater impact on those of us converting stuff, it is getting increasingly difficult to find people who really "know" 2-cycle DD's as compared to those who say they "know" 2-cycle DD's. Yes you really do need to use new fasteners and the copper washers when you work on them. If your mechanic doesn't know about that then you will definitely have a leaker.

Hey MarkO, for those of us who are informationally challenged when it comes to knowing all about the large diesel engines, which Detroit Diesels are 2 -stroke, and which are 4 stroke (so when we are looking at trucks and buses, we will know what to avoid)- and what to look for, especially in the large HD class trucks?

Hey folks- Thanks to MarkO's input, I have avoided buying Cat engine powered buses at the last minute, and so I do value his advice on the best diesel engines out there! I'm learning, maby not too fast, but I am learning...............

I just verified again today what MarkO has said about the Detroit 2-stroke diesels. Two 'old timers' that have run heavy equipment and trucks for years both agreed that the Detroit 2-strokes "slobber" and you need an old time expert to work on them. Both said they will run for ever, but the noise, oil leaks, and trouble finding a good 2-strke diesel mechanic will negate any benefit to owning one.


And they both agreed that the best engines are the Cummins, and the IH engines, especially the DT466. They did say to avoid the older IH 'triple nickel' engine, which is a V-8.

And if you must have a Cat, expect to pay thru the nose for parts and service. And the 3208 Cat engine is a 'one use' engine, with a throw away plan when it expires. They cannot be economically rebuilt with any degree of reliability.

That sort of narrows the good, reliable options way down when shopping for a good bus or truck to build your dream house in or on. And the consensus was that if you are going to build a house on a truck, get a real class 8 HD over-the-highway semi truck to start with, you will never be sorry!