somewhereinUSA build

Discussions about all things to do with buses, trucks, and the homes made within them.

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rlaggren
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Re: Another newbe

Post by rlaggren »

Heating pros get all squirrelly and peculiar when domestic hot water gets close to anything else (like anti-freeze) in a heat exchanger. They're worried about contamination of drinking water (or any water people _might_ drink) by anything else - especially anti-freeze. Since it can real hard to account for _every_ possible failure and screw-up that could cause the contamination, I think they have a valid point. Generally it's not considered safe and it's often illegal to use the domestic hot water system for any additional purpose. There are some home systems which use heat exchangers in the water heater to heat the water but they are not legal everywhere. The heating medium (fluid) from the boiler runs at a significantly lower pressure than the domestic water and thus a leak in the exchanger would contaminate the boiler not the domestic water; the boiler has a blow-off valve set at about 1/2 or less the pressure on the domestic side. This type of system is large, fairly complex and usually hard to install or duplicate in a bus. And it's still not completely fail-safe.

Since you have NO inkling of how your vehicle may be used by somebody down the road, creating a setup that requires specialized knowledge and maintenance to remain relatively safe doesn't sound responsible. Even if you understand safety issues and make sure (for example) to always use non-poisonous anti-freeze, there's not telling what the next guy will do (the "good" stuff is usually 3+ times more expensive). Perhaps that doesn't matter to you, except the next guy may be somebody close and you might be over to visit - and you get poisoned. What goes around...

In SF and many other districts solar tanks with exchangers must keep the fluids separate such that any leak on either side will drain to the ground. This essentially means you can not have the exchanger inside that tank - it has to be wrapped around the outside of the tank and insulated.

This is something the heating people (and plumbers) have always taken extremely seriously. In fact purity/contamination issues are probably the single most important reason for the existence of plumbers as a separate regulated specialized trade. As google is fond of saying lately "This Stuff Matters".

You're sure to do as you please. Just be aware: This issue has been taken seriously for a long time by everyone in the plumbing and heating industry and a large percentage of all design effort for all codes, systems, fixtures and appliances is spent on this one topic - unequivocally preventing contamination. It might be a good priority to follow.

Rufus
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Dennis The Bus Dweller
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Re: Another newbe

Post by Dennis The Bus Dweller »

The attwood that I have comes from the factory like it is now and the heat exchanger is meant to be hooked up to the bus, truck, van, camper cooling system so are we understanding each other right?
Peace along the way
Dennis the bus dweller N.Y.
rlaggren
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Re: Another newbe

Post by rlaggren »

Dennis

Many/most RV and Marine units won't pass code. They don't have to and are sold and installed expediently and with widely varying criteria. So it's extremely unlikely one would be breaking any "rules", if manufacturer's installation guides are followed. However, that doesn't make them particularly safe. Heat exchangers leak, sooner or later. My small rant was an exhortation to think carefully about the consequences of "normal" failures - and when at all possible to design/build/install such that the really bad stuff is just not possible. I don't want to imply you're breaking laws or even (necessarily) not installing properly according to the unit's instructions. I do want to wave the red flag on this particular issue because the risk of failure in the near future, while small, carries some possibly very bad consequences; and failure becomes more likely as stuff ages.

People have different feelings/tolerance about risks. I probably happen to be a little more sensitive on this topic because I'm a plumber and it's a big part of basic plumbing design. From your many posts, I'd say you're thoughtful careful fellow and as you say, that's the way the things are sold. Clearly your call. There are lots of people (most?) who won't know about the possible down sides to heat exchangers in their domestic hot water and that's why I got on my horse.


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Rufus
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somewhereinusa
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Re: Another newbe

Post by somewhereinusa »

Wow, what beautiful weather we're having. I took advantage of it and got the first skin put on today. WOOHOO.

As with everything the first took a while to figure out how I would do everything. I got Mumsywumsy involved in holding some bolts I couldn't reach. I had to pull the area where I cut the old roof back into place so I could rivet things back together. We put a bolt in every other hole, then riveted then replaced the bolts with rivets. After we got going on it, it really didn't take long. Hopefully the rest of this side will go quickly since I now know how I'll make the window frames and install the skin.
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Mark R. Obtinario
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Re: Another newbe

Post by Mark R. Obtinario »

I like how you are tying in the roof to the new panels to the lower panels.

What are you putting between the layers to keep moisture from wicking up and down into the bus?

One of the things I have never liked about BB buses is the little "eyebrows" over every window. The "eyebrows" won't rust like drip rails will. On the other hand, they do not add any structural rigidity to the roof structure either.

Some BB's that see severe service on unpaved roads have a real hard time keeping the roof panels from leaking due to the fact there is nothing that holds the roof together from the front to the back.

The other makes use roof panels that go lengthwise rather than crosswise or utilize a drip rail to connect crosswise panels together.
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somewhereinusa
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Re: Another newbe

Post by somewhereinusa »

I'm using this
http://www.bylerrivet.com/products/item ... x?pid=2384

between all of the panels and also on the ribs.

I moved the original inside panel that the lower roof was riveted to up to stiffen both new lower roof and the upper skin panel. I built new window frames out of square tubing,
The roof/skin will be riveted directly to the tubing above the windows.

Image

I couldn't figure out how to skin a Bluebird other than just filling in each window and I didn't want to do that. I also have taller windows. ( you can see the window opening just
forward of the new skin panel)
Mark R. Obtinario
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Re: Another newbe

Post by Mark R. Obtinario »

You took the rub rail off that is just below the windows.

Are you going to put it back on?

I would think that rub rail would give some structural stiffness at that level of the body.
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somewhereinusa
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Re: Another newbe

Post by somewhereinusa »

Yes, it's going back on. And, yes it does add structural stability. There isn't really any framing under the windows, just the body panel bent into an "L".
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Headache
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Re: Another newbe

Post by Headache »

somewhereinusa wrote:I'm using this
http://www.bylerrivet.com/products/item ... x?pid=2384

between all of the panels and also on the ribs.
That adhesive looks pretty good and appears to bond with everything. I'm surprised they don't list a price. May I ask how much you paid for yours?

I finally found a price here:

http://raybuck.com/i-68943-silaprene-adhesive.html

Damn, that's half the price of the GM adhesive I bought. I think I'll use this to seal the wall/framing bolts. Thanks for posting.
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somewhereinusa
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Re: Another newbe

Post by somewhereinusa »

Well, as usual I can't find the invoice from Byler, but I had seen that site and I think Byler was cheaper, but I may have bought theirs because I bought a bunch of rivets at the same time.
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Re: Another newbe

Post by Stealth Camper »

I have may have missed it before, or maybe just forgot, but has anyone used the Olympic Bulb-tite rivets before?

It is said to be left solid in the middle after popping, then can be smoothed on surface with a special tool to make it look pretty close to a standard rivet. Pricey, but if it doesn't leave a hole in middle for water, dirt, etc, I am interested.
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somewhereinusa
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Re: Another newbe

Post by somewhereinusa »

From what I can tell those rivets only come in aluminum, which isn't what you want.If there is any movement
the steel panels will shear them off.I use these http://www.bylerrivet.com/products/item ... spx?pid=42
They capture the pin and it breads off even with the top and are waterproof. They look just like the rivets on my Bluebird that aren't buck rivets.

I wouldn't recommend trying to use a hand operated gun especially in the 1/4 inch size.
I use this and it works quite well http://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarte ... 98898.html
If I had tried all of those rivets yesterday by hand, I wouldn't be able to move my arms today. My son has one also and did all
of the skin on his coach conversion.

If you have rivet questions call the folks at Byler and they can tell you exactly what you need and they are familiar with bus conversions.
Most of the bus forums steer you in that direction.
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Headache
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Re: Another newbe

Post by Headache »

somewhereinusa wrote:Well, as usual I can't find the invoice from Byler, but I had seen that site and I think Byler was cheaper, but I may have bought theirs because I bought a bunch of rivets at the same time.
Ah okay. Over time I've made it a habit to not buy from sites that force me to give up my private information(usually by having to register) before they will show me their prices. If I don't buy from them they still have my information.
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somewhereinusa
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Re: Another newbe

Post by somewhereinusa »

Don't you just love it when you do something and it actually LOOKS like you got something done. I got the first section of skin on and the first window mounted today. Only about 50 feet and 8 more windows to go. This is a lot of work, but, I think it looks a lot better than just filling in each window. Besides, the way Bluebirds are put together, with that individual eyebrow above each window, there isn't really a good way to fasten the top of any individual panel short of kinda just gluing it in. I was also able to get the bottom of the window high enough so that it will be above the kitchen counters.
Image

The hardest part is getting the rub rail off, the rivets are sunk just enough to make things difficult.
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Headache
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Re: Another newbe

Post by Headache »

somewhereinusa wrote:Don't you just love it when you do something and it actually LOOKS like you got something done.
A very enthusiastic YES!
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