Electrical Systems

Discussions about all things to do with buses, trucks, and the homes made within them.

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Headache
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Electrical Systems

Post by Headache »

I know next to nothing about how electrical systems work or what I will end up needing. I have to have others figure the math for me. I'm asking for additional information and advice but please try to keep it as close to pre-school/kindygarden as possible. Also keep in mind I'm doing this on a disability income so no saunas or flood lights!

I'm planning ahead regarding budgeting for the electrical work to be done to the bus I may(probably will) purchase. Right now, it has two 8D batteries in it and that's it. They are dead.

I'm going all electric, no propane and will always be plugged in somewhere and hopefully find a decent genset. Right now the electrical guy says that since I use a lot of power, I should plan for a 50 amp set up in addition to the tweaking he's thinking about for my 12 volt.

I already know I will be forking out for a much bigger alternator. I don't know what size genset but I'm hoping it's one of those quiet ones. I'm thinking I should find one that runs on diesel since I will have that onboard anyway.

Any additional thoughts, consideration, advice and links are welcomed as long as they are dumbed down.
Mark R. Obtinario
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Post by Mark R. Obtinario »

I would try to get as much as possible to run on 12-volts. That way, if you don't have a convenient plug in you can always start the bus to recharge.

Before you start looking at getting a bigger alternator I would find out what size is on the bus already. And regardless of the size, if it isn't big enough, I would build a mount and run a second alternator off of the first one just to charge a battery bank.

For the few things that will have to run off of 110-volt I would run them off of an invertor/battery bank. You won't be running all of the 110-volt at the same time and by running through the invertor you would reduce the size of the power coming in on a cord.

As far as wiring is concerned, there are several schools of thought. I am of the school that thinks using drop cords is not such a good idea for permanent wiring in a conversion.

Regardless, it is important to think things through before you start doing things--measure twice and cut once.

All of your wiring runs need to be located in a way in which the wiring can be easily accessed in the future, either for additions or replacements. Also, because the wiring will be in a moving vehicle you need to ensure that the wiring is run in a way in which there will never be a possibility of the wire chafing.

With the advent of inexpensive LED lighting the hotel load for lighting can be reduced in a big way when compared to standard incandescent bulbs.

In considering electrical loads you need to plan for the largest so that your wire size is adequate for the load. The lighter the load, the lighter the wire. The lighter the wire the less the wire will cost per foot.

As you are out and about at flea markets and other kinds of alternative markets selling your goods keep your eyes open for items you know you will need. Things like wire, switches, plugs, boxes for switches and plugs, conduit, etc. can be found for cents on the dollar sometimes at alternative markets. I know I have a couple of boxes full of electrical odds and ends that includes wire, switches, plugs, and boxes that I only paid $10.00 per box.

Good luck.
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Post by Headache »

Mark do you have a picture of one alternator running off another? I'm trying to imagine that but it's just not happening.

I like the idea of running off a battery bank but not having to start up to recharge unless I was off by myself somewhere. Depending on where I end up parking after the conversion is over, if I end up in one of those "quiet parks" I don't want to find out after the fact that the neighbors don't appreciate me leaving the bus or a noisy running(I've had it happen). I don't mind having this as an option, I just don't want it to be the only option.

I'm not sure what you mean by using drop cords for permanent wiring. The only thing I knew they were used for is plugging in at the pole, which in my case would be rather permanent but other than running the bus or genset I knew of no better way to get power to the charger.

I've sort of made up a list of what I'll be using. It's not a complete list and you are right in that I wouldn't be using everything at once. However, I am an on demand user and most often I'll flip the switch before thinking. I have to be prepared for that so I don't burn something up.

Portable room a/c
Carbon monoxide and smoke detectors
Two computers, laptop printer and monitors
Paper shredder
Stove/oven
Refrigerator/freezer
Kitchen Ninja blender
Champion juicer
Can opener
Coffee grinder
Dehydrator(someday)
Meat grinder(Not sure which but it will be electric, think Tasin 180 for guesstimate purposes)
Microwave
Water heater(haven't decided between an actual tank or on demand)
Tank heater pads, heat tape, block heater(only for winter use if tanks aren't stuffed inside somewhere)
TV/VCR/DVD player
Electric piano
CB radio
Stereo plus speakers
Any lighting will be compact fluorescent and/or LED
Cell phone and battery chargers(like for AA, AAA size batteries)

I didn't add anything that is part of the electrical system but that will have to be added in at some point as well.

We'll also be using runways and conduit so that the electrical guy and come in and do his thing and what I'm doing won't be in his way.
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Post by Mark R. Obtinario »

I don't have a picture of one alternator working off another.

All of the Setra, Van Hool, and Prevost motorcoaches do it that way. Only MCI still uses just one alternator on most of their motorcoaches.

Just visualize a second set of shivs on the front of one alternator. The first set has a belt that goes to the engine and turns the first alternator. The second alternator is mounted above or to the side of the first alternator so that the second set of shivs turns the second alternator.

With a battery bank/invertor system the shore power goes to the invertor that also acts as a battery charger when the 110-volt power is going the other direction.

I have seen some real low budget conversions where instead of using house type wiring the person who converted the bus just purchased several extension cords and used them as the house wiring. Not a good practice by any stretch of the imagination.

Runways and conduit sounds like you have more than just a glimmer of what needs to be done.
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Post by Sharkey »

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Post by Headache »

Sharkey I don't know if you saw my list or read my email, but that little system will not be enough, that much I do understand. I'm a bit confused by the suggestion since I'm definitely trying to do a solid set up on the electrical. I know I asked for "dumbed down" but that's a bit too simplistic for my needs.

I have to consider that at least one computer and modem will be on virtually 24/7 in addition to whatever else I hit the power on. The summer will be the worst with my having the portable room a/c running and I have yet to figure out what kind of heater I'll be using aside from the wood stove in the winter.

Sorry Mark, you got me on the vocabulary again(yesterday I had to look up what a drop cord was, I knew "extension") so I'm trying to picture a "shiv" being something other than a knife, a goddess or a rogue stab in World of Warcraft. Is that a belt pulley? Don't forget, my lingo is at least 10 years old. And yes, you have me on age slightly but your cherubic face and hi voltage enthusiasm throw me. lol :P

I think what you mentioned about the battery bank/inverter is what may be in the works for the bus. I wasn't really grasping another post made(I think it was a Sharkey post) but isn't that the same system that a sine wave something is used?

Along with the runways and conduit(might splurge on non-metallic flexible), I'm planning on using real switches, light fixtures and outlets! :D
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Post by graydawg »

You probably are going to need a 200 amp box, and plan not to stay in travel trailer parks, most are only 25 amps per side giving a total of 50 amps, most electric stoves are 220 volt 30 amps per side, some less but not many.
I am rewiring the GRAYDAWG soon, and will have a camera by then, even if I have to learn how to post pictures, Rudy may not be as generous with his picture posting this time.
I will be using a 200 amp box in it as well. 2 13500 BTU rooftop AC which is important to me 7 years post HEATSTROKE 106 for 2 hrs 104 for 6 hours all while packed in ice in the VA's ICU, will not be a LUCKY DAWG next time. I am NOT a liscensed electrician, but will be running everything includeing my generator through it, I don't trust auto relay switches in fact the ones that came with the bus are bypassed now. I am preparing for 100 degree heat, my 7 kw gen set should carry the 2 ac load and everything else as well. Already have all the materials for it, just the 25' power cord was $135 alone, but will also have provisions for 30 amp and a spider leg 15 amp adapter just in case. Flea mkts are not known to have RV friendly electric. I wish my genny was diesel but it's propane, and too expensive to replace.
James in da GRAYDAWG
I ONCE WAS A MIGHTY GREYHOUND
I THEN GOT OLD AND RETIRED
I LOST MY SEATS AND GOT A NEW GIG
I AM NOW A HAULIN SOME OLD DAWGS &
I BECAME THE GRAYDAWG
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Post by Headache »

Now graydawg! If you can rewire your bus you can definitely post your own pics. It's very very simple! :P

I was looking over some load center boxes that are generator ready at Home Dept, but without "really" knowing what I'm doing in the electrical department I could do more harm than good. As long as I have a list of what to buy I can at least get that done.

The electrical guy I've been conversing with told me to just order up a spool of wire as thick as battery cables for what I'm going to be using on the bus. lol

I will definitely have a/c although I'm going to use a portable room a/c rather than rooftop units. The way I'm doing the walls and doors of the bus I'll be able to section off areas for cooling rather than cooling the entire rig at once. I'm using it not so much for heat as I am humidity. I can stand some fairly hot temps as long as it's dry but the moment you throw in humidity and BAM I'm down, literally. Unfortunately I'll be subjected to an average of 75% humidity and above while I live in WA. :(
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Post by Rudy »

Dawgman, I will gladly post pictures for you.
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Mark R. Obtinario
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Post by Mark R. Obtinario »

The part of a pulley that the rope rides on is the shiv.

So technically, the "pulleys" on an alternator or pump are shivs.

The good invertors produce a true sine wave alternating current. Some of the less expensive produce what is known as a modified sine wave.

The modified sine wave will work but the more sophisticated electronic components don't like modified sine wave current. They also do not like voltage drops or spikes. Which is why running your shore power through a battery bank/invertor is a good idea.

Graydawg made a good point about most RV parks having only 30- or 50-amp service. If all of the eletrical appliances should happen to cycle on at the same time the surge will blow the 30-amp circuit and most likely the 50-amp circuit.

By going through the battery bank/invertor, the battery bank will "absorb" the surge and lessen the likelihood of blowing the shore power circuit (and in an RV park there is no telling how many times the circuit may have been tripped--the more times it has been tripped the lower the surge is needed to trip the circuit).

If you use an air card you won't need a modem. An air card will get energized through the computer. A computer running, particularly in sleep mode uses very little juice.

Your largest uses for electrical power will be heating/cooling, reefer, stove, and hot water. All of those are best run on 110-volt. There are some nice 110-volt electric stoves available although I would stay away from the ones with ovens--110-volt ovens are real energy hogs. Some of the little (less than 10-gallon) electric hot water heaters are 110-volt. Having your hot water heater on a timer so that it heats the water just before you need to take a shower will also reduce your energy needs. The rest of the time, heating what hot water you need on the stove top will reduce your energy needs considerably.

If everything else is run off of 12-volt you will reduce the hotel load considerably. It will also reduce your cost of wiring. 12-volt wiring and switches can be considerably less expensive than 110-volt wiring and switches.
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Post by Sharkey »

Mark R. Obtinario wrote:The part of a pulley that the rope rides on is the shiv.

So technically, the "pulleys" on an alternator or pump are shivs.
Mark, I think the word you are trying to use is "sheave": http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sheave
Mark R. Obtinario
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Post by Mark R. Obtinario »

You are probably correct.

I can't say that I have ever seen the word spelled before.
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Post by Rudy »

That's too funny. I did think that a shiv was a sharpened object that you hid while you were in the can.

I never knew of the the word sheave either.
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graydawg
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Post by graydawg »

RUDY in the CAN, never heard of it, what does it do? does it post pictures on the internet better? is there any more uses for it? why would anyone hide Rudy in the can? or is it that spray stuff they advertise on TV that makes stuff easier? Yaw stop being mean to Rudy, he deserves better treatment than that.
James in da GRAYDAWG
I ONCE WAS A MIGHTY GREYHOUND
I THEN GOT OLD AND RETIRED
I LOST MY SEATS AND GOT A NEW GIG
I AM NOW A HAULIN SOME OLD DAWGS &
I BECAME THE GRAYDAWG
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Post by Headache »

Dagnabbit! I think my video card died about this time so I missed reading all this.

Thanks for "sheave" Sharkey. Do you know of any electrical information that get's explained easy, like that solar magazine you posted?

And thanks for the clarification too Mark.

With keeping everything in mind, I am setting up for using 50 amp service when plugged into shore power.

I've been looking at marine appliances more often now as it seems the quality is better, the smaller sizes are more appropriate for what I need and I'm finding what I'm looking for, such as a 110 range. I want my range, I bake bread!

I had the modem on my list because I plan to only use an air card for the least amount of time possible. Using them becomes very expensive with the amount of time(and data transfer) I use each month. I will be looking for a place to park once the remodel is done, that has hi-speed internet availability.

I am not opposed to doing things like shutting off the fridge while I'm using the oven. I just want to make sure that what I'm using is tough enough that if I forget something the likelihood I smell plastic burning is lessened considerably. I'd like to use a solar oven but I have to remember where I'll be living and that won't always be a logical idea. >.<

The battery bank/inverter idea sounds great. Is the inverter the same as a trickle charger?

I'm also interested in finding a "quiet" gen set that runs on diesel for when I'm away from a pole. Any recommendations as to types and quality as well as what to stay away from will be welcomed.

I think that's it for now.
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