Different Wisdom

Discussions about all things to do with buses, trucks, and the homes made within them.

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Lostranger
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Lostranger »

Sam is a sustainable ag major at Warren Wilson College near us. She took one of the banjo building courses I taught there last Fall. She heard me talking about the organic vegetable business to another student and asked if we would be interested in an intern. Turns out that I was. She is a jewel.

Check out this site: spinfarming.com

You won't learn a lot without buying at least one of their guides, and they're not inexpensive, but I treasure the two I bought. SPIN stands for Small Plot INtensive. One of the best things about the SPIN system is marketing. The growing system they teach is largely based on the work of John Jeavons in books such as "How to Grow More Vegetables" with some refinement for their approach. SPIN recommends that people in urban situations rent small plots in neighbors's back yards rather than buy land. That keeps overhead low and grows food close to markets. It's brilliant.

Good luck with your tomato. Do you really only have one?

Jim
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Stealth Camper »

Thanks for the info!! Looks like good stuff!

Yep, only one little Cherokee Purple. RIght now, am living in a travel trailer in mid-Oklahoma. Will try to take a picture and post it - pretty sorry looking little thing. It is in a large pot at the front of the trailer. On concrete pad...very bad environment!

We now have 20 acres staring us in the face in northeast OK. Magnificent pasture!! Will see how good a 'garden' we get out of it - if past experience on this type of land is any guide, it will become a very good farm/garden patch!

We aren't exactly amateurs at gardening - just at the "trying to make a living selling what we grow" part of it. Both of us have been doing serious veggie gardening as in to "feed the family", since we were kids. SWMBO is a Master Gardener here and has done 'hobby' flower related growing and sales for a long time. Very small scale. We have just always depended on jobs to be the mainstay and the farm/garden as a hobby. Now, we are gonna get serious.

Our place was part of a cattle operation that I am letting sit for this year and just try to recover from the haying that went on. The cattle put a lot back into it, but there was always more taken out. The plan, when the rains and floods stop, is to cut the hay and let it stay in place to compost - probably get two cuttings this year. Probably won't cut to bale for a couple years when I get a couple of cows. Then, while building house/barn, start making beds - probably this fall/winter. For the most part, we USUALLY have fairly mild winters on average, except when it goes to -30 F in the town 5 miles north of us!! That isn't quite as mild....but the other side of that was, on the 5th day after that, it was +93 F.!! That was in late January.... kind of a psycho weather place.

We have chicken operations about 30 miles east of us and I plan to get in touch with them for a source of manure. Should be very good. A couple of compost piles are going to be about 6 feet wide X 30 feet long, inside concrete frames - use a front loader on the tractor to 'turn' the piles. Lots of cattle around, too, so fertilizer should never be a problem....just gotta find the guys like the one who was on ours who do only grass fed. He wasn't organic, 'cause he used herbicide on the weeds - that will wear off and be long gone by next spring - I see weeds popping up a lot now, so it already gone except for the symptom of low weed count.

We plan to turn at least a few acres of this back into 'tall grass prairie' - what was here 200 years ago. Not a big thing, but our little effort to have a pretty, natural plot.

Sorry to go on so much - don't want to hijack your thread!! May have to start one of my own to show any progress we make...

Oh, yeah...intern....do you pay her for the work or is she 'volunteering'...? Is this a formal thing through the school so she gets some kind of 'credit' for the time beyond just experience and joy of gardening?
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Lostranger
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Lostranger »

Hey Stealth,

Glad to hear about your agrarian plans. Wish you the best with it. P mail me, and I'll tell you more about how the intern thing is working.

I had an epiphany about reskinning the bus today. On my Flex, I reskinned with 18g cold rolled steel. Bonded it in place with Sikaflex 252. For the most part, it worked fine. If I were doing it over, it would work even better because I know more about the process.

Since the upper body of the Gillig is aluminum, I had planned to reskin with 12g aluminum because Dave Galey says it has about the same stiffness as 18g cold rolled. Whatever material I use will be 41" wide.

I've seen build threads on other message boards and web sites where people reskinned an entire side with one big sheet. I called metal suppliers today to see if big sheets of 12g aluminum can be ordered. The longest of the three sheets I would need is 35' 6". I did not find a single supplier in western NC who said they could order such. What I did find is that 12g aluminum is about 3x as expensive per square foot as 18g cold rolled. While I was pondering that fact, I thought up a way to use four 10' sheets of 18g steel per side and still get the seamless look that I want. It would involve adhesive bonding the sheets to the existing ribs, plug welding the sheets to steel frames I would build to shore up the window openings, then butt welding the sheets together at the joints. At $64/sheet and four sheets per side, this method seems good to me, even though it would involve some body work.

If anyone has reskinning suggestions or experience, I'm all ears. I had almost talked myself into putting off the reskin again until next summer, but everything I do on the inside would have to be undone when reskin comes. I'm back to taking the plunge this summer, but I'd love all the info I can get.

In my mind, no single step does more to change "bus" to "house" than a properly-done reskin. I'm planning to drive to Elkhart to buy windows. Will probably reinstall the driver's window, but the passenger side and all four of the other planned windows will be motorhome surplus. The body of the Gillig is so good that it won't take much more than the reskin and some sanding to get it ready to paint. That is, after the door is finished. (More on that soon.) Not sure what color yet, but it will be something basic. That and polishing the Alcoas should make it sparkle.

Best to all,

Jim
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Lostranger
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Lostranger »

Here's a photo of the Flex with steel skin. Never did get it painted. This is just before it was hauled away.

Image
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stuartcnz
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by stuartcnz »

Goodclue (Doug) is the person to advise on reskinning. If he doesn't respond to this thread, I would highly recommend sending him a PM.
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Dusty »

I think some more research on alloy types is appropriate. Just saying 12g Al is like 18g steel is not enough info.

Is the alloy of the correct hardness . Look at the 2002 range the 5005 range the 6000 series .

All have 1/4 hard, 1/2 hard, comm , (soft) varieties and can be used in different situations .

I used 2mm 5005 (if I remember correctly) when reskining part of the Bedford. easy to cut and stiff enough to stay flat . Oh, do it on a hot day if you can , stops some of the panel growth later that makes it look bowed.

Consider solid rivets - countersunk for the flush finish, maybe get really professional and dimple the sheet and the frame hole. sure add some adhesive to help bond the sheet to the panel, certainly you will need to apply sealant to the frame and the rivets as you build it, at the very least.
58 Bedford House
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Lostranger
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Lostranger »

Thanks to Stuart and Dusty. I'm looking for my copy of Galey's "The Bus Converter's Bible." If I can find it, I'll post a summary of his argument for steel skin just so everyone here can be aware. In the meanwhile, I'll do more research. Dusty, always a pleasure when you weigh in.

Jim
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Stealth Camper »

I have looked at rivets for quite a while for my bus...what I could find that I liked best was aluminum rivet - Olympic rivet that gives a look similar to a buck rivet. The biggest issue I have is the alum/steel interface on my bus as source of corrosion. A steel Olympic rivet would be nice!
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Mark R. Obtinario »

My concern would be in regards to dissimilar metals.

Even Crown has issues over the years with dissimilar metals.

I think using something like Sikaflex would help with the issue.

The big problem is in the attaching fasterners. If you have a steel frame and aluminum skin or any variation thereof, you stand the risk of having issues. It would be really nice if we could attach zincs to trail along behind us like a boat to let some sacrifical lamb get eaten up rather than our buses.
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Lostranger
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Lostranger »

Let's not forget that Rob Gray skinned his entire steel framed truck body with aluminum diamond plate using Sikaflex 252. I wrote to him about a year ago to ask how it's held up. Says he's had no problems. He did say that it's necessary to use Sika's cleaner and primer. I was not even aware of those products when I skinned the Flex.

I'm confident I can bond steel to aluminum with the system I have in mind. You can —and should — read Rob's build threads at graynomad.com
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Graynomad »

I wondered why my ears were burning :)

Yes I used Sika 252, rather than type all the details in here's a link to the appropriate section of my build log

http://robgray.com/graynomad/wothahelli ... ex.php#vhb

Remember though that I was using thick ali sheets (2mm) that always lay flat, thin sheets may be a bit wavy, although it's still probably worse with mechanical fasteners. One good thing about using Sika is that there is no dissimilar metals issue because they never touch, also the stresses are spread over a very large area, not concentrated on a few rivets.
I wrote to him about a year ago to ask how it's held up. Says he's had no problems.
Yep, 6 years now and still stuck like crap to a blanket.

EDIT: Just found another place I talk abut using Sikaflex

http://robgray.com/graynomad/wothahelli ... oof_sheets
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Lostranger
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Lostranger »

Hey Rob,

Thanks for chiming in, and double thanks for posting both links. Didn't realize you belonged to our tiny family.

I've reread both your segments, and I'm now convinced that I can skin my aluminum frame with 18g steel bonded only with 252. The window section is just 41" wide, I have a rib at least every 5', gluing surface top and bottom and I will subdivide each window opening with two vertical steel frame members. Forget all the work of plug welding to the steel and butt welding the sheets together. I'll butt factory ends together on the ribs and live with the resulting tiny lines.


The only problems I had with bonding to the Flex were the result of too much clamping pressure. I know better now. I've found a source for the primer and cleaner. Hopefully I can report on the process in the next few weeks.
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Graynomad »

Yes I've been a member for some time, but not very active as you can see :)

Hope it goes well.
I'll butt factory ends together on the ribs
For ali on steel I allowed an expansion gap, steel on steel should be ok.
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Lostranger »

I mentioned a few days ago that I would post a shot of my new batteries with the new cables. Here it is:

Image

I love having this much battery. The cables will be tidied as the conversion progresses.

Rob, you raise a good point about expansion joints. Even though I'll be bonding to aluminum vertical ribs, the structural pan of the bus is steel, albeit stainless. My thinking is that steel skin panels — cladding, if you prefer — will expand and contract at the same rate as the structure of the bus. That SHOULD make expansion joints unnecessary.

Jim in NC
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Re: Different Wisdom

Post by Stealth Camper »

Graynomad wrote:Yes I've been a member for some time, but not very active as you can see :)

Hope it goes well.
I'll butt factory ends together on the ribs
For ali on steel I allowed an expansion gap, steel on steel should be ok.

Ok, here I go off topic again...seems to be a trend. Was wandering around your site and really enjoyed it!

Noticed you are in Gin Gin right now, so started looking around about that and found a list of restaurants - one called the Starburst Diner. The review I saw had something fried with a couple of small bowls of other stuff. Fried always looks good, so was wondering if you have ever eaten there? And if so, would you have any idea what they might have that looks kind of like a breaded lobster without claws, or maybe the biggest prawn in the world....or maybe some kind of unidentifiable land creature??

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_R ... sland.html

Also, would Gin Gin be a place to add to the visit list if we ever make our way south? (Likely a long time from now....)
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