1935 Chevy school bus

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Redbear
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by Redbear »

somewhereinusa wrote:. . . If you apply AC it would be turning off and on 60 times a second.
Exactly. But that works OK, even with DC designers often strobe the LEDs off and on really fast to save power and heat dissipation, and the eye does not notice the difference (unless you wave your fingers back and forth to see the strobe effect, the same as with a fluorescent light tube). If you put two LEDs back to back in opposite polarity on an AC circuit, each one would be on 50% of the time, and both would look lit.

Executive summary:
When I am making an indicator for switch position or other status in "12 volt" circuits, I use a 1200 ohm resistor on the hot side of a standard plastic (Radio Shack or budget bag) LED to limit the current to 50% for long life. If I wanted brighter, I would use 750 ohms (a non-standard size, I would use two 1500 ohm resistors in parallel) for 70% current at 12.6 volts and 100% at 17.1 volts.

Details:
Think of an LED as a diode that emits light, not a light bulb. When the marked side is pointed to the negative, it will conduct electricity and also light up. When the marked side is pointed to the positive, it acts as a one-way valve and blocks the flow of electricity (provided the break-down voltage is not exceeded). The brightness depends on the amount of current passing through the LED.

A standard cheap plastic-cased LED is usually rated for around 20 mA (0.02 amps) and 2.1 volts. Specially colored LEDs might have different ratings. LEDs in series with resistors are not like bulbs. Bulbs would divide up the voltage with the series resistor based on the proportion of their resistances. LEDs say "I'll take 2.1 volts, you can have the rest." Selecting a resistor requires considering how much current you want to run through the LED, and what "the rest" of the voltage is. For a 20 mA LED, use 50 ohms per excess volts to get 100% current, or 100 ohms per excess volt to get 50% current.

In my example, 1200 ohms = 10 mA at 12.00 volts, plus 2.1 volts for the LED = 50% current at 14.1 volts, and 100% current at 24 + 2.1= 26.1 volts. This gives long life on a fluctuating voltage source like batteries having a charge/discharge cycle. For a brighter indicator, 750 ohms in series allows the 20 mA at 15.00 excess volts, and chances are good that the charger wont go over 15 + 2.1 = 17.1 volts and overheat the LED.

Without current limiting, the LED attempts to drop 2.1 volts in whatever circuit it is in. Put it across a 12-volt battery, and it will attempt to draw the battery down to 2.1 volts. The only limit is the internal resistance of the battery and wiring. So it will draw about 6,000 amps for as long as it can, which is about one quarter of the blink of an eye. As Somewhere in USA has said, you let the light out all at once.

You could use the same LED circuit designs on AC power - 12,000 ohms on the hot lead would have 50% current at 122.1 volts, and 100% current at 242.1 volts. 7,500 ohms would give 100% current at 152.1 volts.

Using resistors is simple, but it has the same problem as incandescents: at 14.1 volts, 85% of the power is used as heat in the resistor. Using a single LED for an indicator, this cannot be avoided no matter how you control the current.

Some LED modules have internal switching power supplies that adapt to changing voltages to give steady light. Some are good, and some not so good. A buddy loaned me one model of LED bulb replacement to try in my camper dome light. The FM radio in the screen tent next door noised up as soon as it was turned on and started switching. No thanks.
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Lostranger
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by Lostranger »

Redbear, my hat's off to you. I'll be back to this post often when I do my wiring. I love the fact that this BB is not just a bunch of hotheads pooling arrogance and ignorance.

Keep up the good work, friends.

Jim
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by Mark R. Obtinario »

Redbear I just finished reading your latest post a couple of times.

I have to admit that I still have no idea as to what you just wrote.

I know how to wire stuff up so that it wil work. With help I can usually ever get it correct the first time. But my experience in regards to LED's is purchasing replacement bulbs or lamps that have LED's instead of incandascent elements.
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by ol trunt »

Hello All. Jim, you hit the nail on the head. Your three short sentences completely sums up what is so great about this forum. True, all of us who post here enjoy admiring comments about our projects or we wouldn't post--and that is just fine. More importantly we seem to have a real intrest in what others are doing and a willingness to exchange ideas and admit our shortfalls in a way I haven't encountered on other forums. When you (Jim) mentioned the other day that you were planning on a west coast tour and that you would like to see my bus first hand, I'll have to admit that my stomach did a little flip flop because a close up look at my bus will show what a hacker I really am. You, Somewhere, Tango and several others demonstrate better quality and workmanship in your "temporary" fixes than I'll ever be able to show in my completed bus! As for Redbear, the willingness to take the time to post such a lengthy and articulate study on LED's goes way beyond just being helpful and I do appreciate it. Thanks to all. Jack
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somewhereinusa
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by somewhereinusa »

Redbear, thanks for the explanation.

Jack
You, Somewhere, Tango and several others demonstrate better quality and workmanship in your "temporary" fixes than I'll ever be able to show in my completed bus!
I really doubt that. Your attention to detail makes me look like a piker. I'm always amazed at the great lengths you go to to test something before you even start building it. I have great visions in my mind of how my projects are going to look and when it's finally finished it looks like a piece of crap. You know, that piece you've slaved over to get it just right, it looks pretty good and you take that one little cut or file one more time and that big OOPS happens. :banghead: I just finished a piece of furniture for "she who must be obeyed" It took me months to finish.(only because I'm easily distracted) I think it looks like it came out of a third rate Chinese factory. She loves it, maybe because it took months to finish, and her eyesight ain't what it used to be.

I too hope to get out to you're neck of the woods to see your cool projects.

Dick
tango
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by tango »

You, Somewhere, Tango and several others demonstrate better quality and workmanship in your "temporary" fixes than I'll ever be able to show in my completed bus!
LOL! If what I have seen in your pix is anything like your work, you are light-years ahead of me Jack. If not...then I have all that much more appreciation for your PhotoShop skills.

And roger the appreciation for Redbear. Even though, like Mark I have no idea what any of it means.

All things electrical = Voodoo.
roach711
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by roach711 »

Jack's just being humble. Did you guys see restoration he did on the toad? If that's hacking it's the best I've ever seen. :)
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by roach711 »

Redbear - Is the voltage limiting responsible for my LED flashlights going from full output to no output in a few seconds? I love the led flashlights but they do have a habit of going dark at the worst possible time.
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Dennis The Bus Dweller
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by Dennis The Bus Dweller »

I used Tiger-foam cuz the R-Rating was the highest and it has fire retardant qualities to it and im gonna have my tiny house trailer shot with it as well cuz it the best way to go… I believe you figure it in bf-board feet not cubic feet. 1”x12”x12” = 1 bf-board foot. Now all that being said, you need to be “Very Careful” doing it yourself cuz the fumes are “Very bad” I used a respirator, gloves, a sute and goggle and I still couldn't see properly for over a week “ I mean it” it was pretty scary. So I got a price from a local insulation Co. of 2 grand to shoot the tiny home “22’x8’x12’ “ for a R-21 and my 40’ bus I shot with a 1 ½” “half of what the tiny house will have” cost me $1200.00 and I scared the crap out of myself };o) so check with a local Co. before you do it yourself
stuartcnz wrote:
Lostranger wrote:Jack, your passing comment about spray foam caused me to do a Homer Simpson. "DOH!" McMaster Carr has a 30# DIY kit for $435. That's 17 cubic feet of 1.8lb/cf foam. I have no idea how far that would go, but even two of those would be less than what I was figuring to spend on polyiso board. From what I'm seeing on YouTube, it would be a HUGE time saver, plus, it gets all the cracks and corners. I'd have to wait until after the reskin next spring, but i'm thinking spray is the way. Anyone have experience with the stuff?
Dennisthebusdweller is the man to ask about foam. Here is a picture from inside his bus, during conversion.
Image
Peace along the way
Dennis the bus dweller N.Y.
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Lostranger
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by Lostranger »

Jack, Jack, Jack.... Your claim of doing inferior finish work reminds me of something my long-dead grandmother used to say in response to foolish or deliberately misleading statements, "My, my. A flock of 'em flew over that time." Or as my old daddy would have put it, "You talk just like a Pepsi Cola truck ran clean over you." I'm sure those are both Southern Appalachian colloquialisms (read "hillbilly speak"), but they should communicate. In case you missed it, Jack, the rest of us are calling a large and unmistakable "BS" on certain statements you've made today.

Now, to a serious topic. You're right that all of us love to have others admire our work, but not just anybody. We take the time to post to this forum, in part, so others who know the drill can see and appreciate what we do. Everyone likes strokes from people admiring things we've put our heart, brain and sweat into, but for us, we want those strokes from other bus nuts — our actual peers. I agree that there's nothing wrong with enjoying a positive response to our work, especially since that is not the main reason we hang out here. I love the knowledge base, the wealth of experience and perspective and the camaraderie. It's easy to get discouraged on a project as enormous as converting a bus or truck, especially when you're not following cookie-cutter formulas handed down by the RV industry. I've been picked up and/or refocused many times by input from one of you guys. I won't start mentioning names because the list is too long, but I will say again that the TONE of this group is exceptional. I don't know of a single egomaniac in the group. I've never been part of such a well informed but low-key forum. I feel like I make a bit of positive contribution, but what I receive here FAR exceeds what I give. Most of you know that our bus is our home, and we literally have a place to live, in part, because you guys are out there sharing what you know and what you do and having such a great attitude about it. I appreciate it.

As I've said many times, keep up the good work.

Jim the Hillbilly

P.S. In North Carolina we have a little known law requiring people who live west of Hickory, and whose family has been in the state at least five generations, to have, in their front yard, a car up on blocks. Since we try to be exceptional citizens, we always keep at least four.
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by ol trunt »

Hello All. This post has nothing to do with busses other than it depics the learning curve that led me to my bus.

I was lucky enough to get a schlorship (sp) to Duke or is it Dook? as a graduate student. They didn't seem to care that I couldn't spell (hense 'Ol Trunt instead of Old Truant). Anyway, Those days in NC fall into some of the best memories I have. NC is a beautiful state and the fall colors defy description. The hunidity sucks. When I should have been studing I found myself roaming the local junk yards looking for parts that would allow me to convert my then nearly new 1967 Chevy Suburban to 4X4. I struck pay dirt when I ran across Percy Flower's (a boot legger of some renoun)1957 International 4X4 mobile still. It had been confiscated during a bust and junked. The junkie could hardly contain himself when this Ca kid agreed to pay $150 for "anything I wanted" from the truck. I learned the hard way about wild black berries and poison oak (I already knew about squanks). I spent the snowy nights of the winter months of 1969 under my Suburban and actually got the 4X4 installed. Stupid thing shimmied something awful but I did manage to put 100,000 miles on it running back and forth between Durham and my field study area Baja Ca.

Who'd of guessed it. I chucked all that edjukation, became a cop (retired and loved it) and think that somewhere west of Hickory would be just about Heven. Jack
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Lostranger
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by Lostranger »

Jack, if you like North Carolina junk yards, you'd LOVE our place.
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by tango »

Have to agree...NC is just ridiculously beautiful. And if you're ever around Robinsville(?)...you just have to drive the "Tail of the Dragon". But I have to admit, it's probably much more fun on motorcycle than in a bus!
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by ol trunt »

Hello All. Well, if I was'nt a member of the itchy and scratchy club I sure am now. I've spent most of the week cutting and fitting pieces of the fiberglass combo toilet/bath for my bus. Originally the entire unit was in a 5er I cut up for parts. The 5er was free and free is good except that I had to cut the bath so I could get the sink to face the side of the bus rather than sticking out into the walkway (too much wasted space). I also wanted the bath as close to the rear of the bus as posible but because the rear of the bus slopes, the back of the bath had to be cut and pasted to match the slope. I positioned the bath off center to provide extra room to get in and out of it as the door is on the side. I then cut the floor of the bus (to allow me to lower the bath for extra head room) and found two frame rails that were going to stick into the lowered bath floor space :banghead:

Thus far I have installed the base unit, the sink and mirror area, the back behind the toilet and both frame covers. Now I need to install the front wall, the door frame and the articulation with the roof. Jack

This pic shows the angle of the bathroom wall behind the toilet--There is still enough room to use the toilet if one strikes the Thinker's pose :lol: The lead glass windows in the pic are part of the garage door not the bus--too bad. Image

I used the pieces I cut out of the bath floor to cover the frame rails. By reversing the pieces and smoothing their rough sides they made good covers.Image

Installed.Image

Pic of the frame cover behind the toilet.Image
tango
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Re: 1935 Chevy school bus

Post by tango »

Hey Jack --- I'm gonna' be watching this part really close. Can't cut into my floor but I have similar fitting issues. i.e.; too much stuff, too little space! And I'll have to go with custom shop & chop fiberglass as well. Not at all looking forward to that part of the build (itch, itch, scratch, scratch).
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