Fun with the Phantom

Discussions about all things to do with buses, trucks, and the homes made within them.

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Lostranger
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by Lostranger »

I need one of those fences. Much better idea than all the measuring and clamping I usually do to rip long panels. I'm pretty good with a free hand circular saw, but nothing beats the clean edge you get from using a guide fence.

Don't forget what I told you about Sikaflex 252. Drop that tube in hot, tap water for ten or fifteen minutes, and it comes out as easily as White Lightning.

Looking forward to your next installment.

Jim
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

Thanks Jim for that tip! I had forgotten about it. I just wished I had known it when I was using that stuff.

Wall Coverings Go Up

Just like I kept the ceiling in my budget build, I also kept the walls. My walls had a wood grain looking strip under the windows. Below that, there was a section covered in a rubber material sort of like the floor covering. I ripped this out as it was faded, dirty, and looked bad. In it's place I laid carpet.

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Walls Go Up

One by one I make them and put them up.

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Bathroom Walls Get Built

My bathroom enclosure is built the same way as my walls. Unlike the walls, it has a front door on it. I searched far and wide for a door frame made of aluminum. I finally found one. It was manufactured for tall office cubicles that had a door. I really liked the look of it so I bought it. I think it cost me about $125. Here's one wall, looking into the door entrance. Notice at the top part of the aluminum door facing.

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I put the front section of the bathroom wall together using Kreg screws. They are on the rear of the wall and will get covers so that you don't notice the holes. It worked out really well. I used Kreg in a few other places too. It's a great way of joining materials.

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Using existing railing inside the bus, I braced the back bathroom wall that adjoins the bedroom.

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Here's my tiny bathroom less the door. It's not very big. The sink is going to be across the hall, so just the toilet in here. Why build a large bathroom when you're just not going to be in there that much . . . . well, at least I hope you're not. :shock:

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Here's the floor ---- grouted vinyl tile. Not much you can do with those big wheel wheels except live with them. I haven't trimmed out the edges of the floor yet. Going to wait until I run water lines first, as the back wall may be covered up at the base.

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Up next, I'll show you how I built my door. I have to confess, I call this my million dollar bathroom. Not because the materials cost so much, because I have so much time in building it, it would have cost a million dollars if someone had to pay me for all the time. You just never realize how time consuming some jobs are going to be.
Last edited by LuckyChow on Wed May 06, 2015 2:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Darryl
Smyrna GA
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

Working with Laminates

As you've seen in my prior photos I frequently use laminate to cover my panels. For my bathroom door I laminated a common "slab door" from Home Depot. I'll show you the steps (and the tools) I used to do that job.

First off you need something to cut the laminate to a workable size for the door. I generally bought 4 X 8 foot sheets. An inexpensive laminate cutter is one way to do it. You can also use a table saw (more trouble unless you have a big table around the saw for the whole sheet to lay on) or a power sheet metal cutter, which resembles a drill with sissors on the end. I've always used this hand cutter because I don't do much at one time and it works just fine. You can find these at the big box stores as well. If you try to use ordinary sissors, you run the risk of splitting the laminate. The hand tool made for this is fairly inexpensive and does a fine job.

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The other tool in the picture is a roller that is used to press the laminate against the wood. More often than not, I use a hand towel under the palm of my hand to do the same thing. It slides over the laminte easily and is quick.

I don't have a fancy workshop. Almost my entire bus build was made outside. I start with a couple of saw horses with a sheet of plywood laid on top. This makes a fine table to work on. I then lay the laminate on the table upside down so I can mark my cut without later having to clean the marker off the finished side. I then lay whatever I'm applying the laminate to (in this case a slab door) on top of the laminte. I usually allow a couple inches overage on each side/end of the door/panel and mark it with a permanent marker. Take the door off and set it aside. You now have the laminate on the table and it is marked where you want to cut it. This is much easier than trying to handle a full size sheet of laminate. I use the hand laminate cutter to make the cut along the line I marked and lay the unused part of the laminate aside for later use.

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At this point, we have the laminate cut and our slab door is waiting to get the laminate applied. Using a good adhesive, you'll apply it to both the door and the back side of your laminate. The adhesive you'll need is commonly called contact cement and is available in both quart cans and spray cans. Since I mainly do small stuff I usually use the spray cans. It costs more, but the time it saves with cleanup is worth it to me. The convenience factor is really great with the spray cans.

Regardless of which one you use, be aware that there are different grades available. Since this is a vehicle that can get very hot inside (when parked and not being used), always look for a high-heat/high strength adhesive. All of the glues stick for a while, but the really good ones will be there for many years without turning loose. Here's the one I've been using for the last 8 years or so.

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I get this at my local shop that caters to the cabinet making crowd. I have not been able to find a suitable spray can adhesive at either Home Depot or Lowes. They carry a great brand (3M), but not the high strength version. Your store may be different. If I remember correctly, my local HD carries 3M "77". Although it's from a great company, I don't think this particular one it works well for RV use. Over time, I've used 3 or 4 different brands. One of the things I've noticed is that the really strong ones always have a shaker ball in them, much like spray can paint. I'm guessing it's because the adhesive is thicker and needs the ball to mix things up before spraying.

The glue must be applied to both surfaces (the door and the laminate). After you get the adhesive applied to both the door and the laminate, you will wait until the surface is tacky before joining the two. Because of the time it takes to apply the glue to both the door and the laminate with a spray can, I rarely have to wait at all. If you were using a roller to apply the glue, you would finish much faster and might have to wait for it to tack up. Be aware that contact cement/adhesive/glue is not like construction adhesive, silicone, or any of the tube adhesives. You do not get a "work time" where you can place the laminate on top of the door and move the laminate to the spot you want it to be. When you use contact adhesive and both pieces touch, it's sticks immediately. You can rarely move it. Don't ask me how many times I've made a mistake and ruined something. I'd rather not be embarrassed. So it's very important that you place it in the right position before you let the two surfaces touch.

To aid in this process, get some round dowel sticks to lay on top of your door. You can lay them right on top of the door even though it has the glue applied. They will not stick to the door because they do not have any glue on them. What they will do is let you position your laminate sheet to just the right position before removing the sticks. When you get the laminate lined up correctly, you can start pulling the sticks out. Start at one end, pulling each stick out in order and press down on the laminate so that it meets the door. If you don't do it in order, you may end up with a hump in the middle because the ends adhered first and there is no way for the middle to lay down.

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After the laminate is stuck to the door, use a trim router (with a trim bit) to trim off the excess material around the door. Here is my door after I've finished it.

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Trimming out this mortis was a bit tricky. The place where the door knob fits was done with the trim router, but the latch part was done by freehand with a Dremel tool.

A word of caution --- after you get through applying your laminate and trimming it with the router, be aware that "trimmed out" laminate leaves a very sharp edge. It can cut you badly. I take a bastard file and rake it down the length of the laminate (at a 45 degree angle to the edge) to remove the sharp corner. You don't have to file it, just one rake down it will take the edge off and solve the problem. Also, if you happen to get any glue on the finished side of the laminate, it removes easily with lacquer thinner.

I hope this was helpful to anybody that has considered doing laminate, but didn't know where to start. This is how I do mine. Some of you may have a far better way of doing it, so don't accept this as gospel by any means. It's just one simple way of doing it without a lot of expensive tools.

The Door is On the Pooper

Okay, here's the finished product, although the edges don't yet have the T-moulding trim on them.

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I hope this wasn't too long. Once you get the hang of it, it goes easily. The door was a little tricky, but walls were much easier.
Darryl
Smyrna GA
2000 Gillig Phantom
LuckyChow
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

Flooring

Nothing sets off a room like beautiful flooring. I would also say the same for a bus. After much back-and-forth about what kind of floor to use, I finally decided on laying down an engineered floor. I used Lowe's own brand, Style Selections, which is made by Bruce. The finish is Gunstock. Went down pretty well. This is the real wood kind, albeit thin (about 3/8). It is also snap-n-lock. This was the first time I've ever put down a floor like this. Having a level floor was more critical than I expected. There were 3 or 4 places I had to level.

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I was really glad to get this floor down. I decided early on that I wanted the floor under the cabinets and pretty much everything. Some people wait until the cabinets are down and then lay the floor. I like this floor a lot. However, it's been down a year now and I've been able to see how it performs. The only thing I don't like about it is that is scratches easier than a traditional hardwood floor. If I were doing it again, I might consider the vinyl stick on floor, especially since I have dogs. I think it may be more durable than the wood, but certainly not prettier.

It's a Transit. What To Do About the Wheel Wells?

The back ones were pretty easy. They're partially under the bed and the bathroom sink. The front, well, were a bit harder to hide. A lot of people actually put a sofa or cabinet over them. For my purpose, I built a platform for dog crates. This is my dog show vehicle so I need a place to put crates while we are travelling. I only use a crate during transport. After arriving, everyone has free run. A crate is the safest way to travel for the dogs. If there is an accident, they have some protection from objects and also the crate is screwed down to the platform with some substantial hooks used for rigging on marine sails. Unfortunately, I've meet two persons at dog shows that were involved in a major accident with their motor homes. The dogs in the crates fared well. The ones not in a crate did not.

These platforms are a place that I used the aluminum corner moulding. I think it gives it a nice appearance here. The top is actually conveyor belting. My goodness, it doesn't get any tougher than that stuff. It's practically indestructible. You'll notice the trim is the same T-moulding trim I've used elsewhere in the bus, albeit a different color. That stuff is just so easy to install. I love it.

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Last edited by LuckyChow on Mon May 11, 2015 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Darryl
Smyrna GA
2000 Gillig Phantom
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

It Wasn't All Pretty

Like the title says, it wasn't all pretty. After I removed all the seats, wheel chair panels, and rubber floor covering, I could really examine the condition of my floor. Turns out I had soft spots behind the wheel wells that had to be cut out and replaced. This is not uncommon on buses and is definitely something you should check when buying a new bus. I knew I had a little, but it was actually a bit worse than I originally thought. Here are some photos of places I cut out and repaired with new plywood.

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You can see my fuel tank under the floor here!

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Driver's Compartment Floor

The floor rot at the wheel wells was a bit unexpected, but was nothing compared to what I was about to find next. Completely hidden and a complete shock to me was the condition of the floor pan around the drivers area. When I took off the trim around that compartment I was in complete shock. I couldn't believe my eyes. The sheet metal around the surround was almost gone.

This bus has almost no rust on it anywhere ----- underneath, inside, on top ---- so when I saw this pan, it was truly shocking. After I finally came around from this extremely disappointing find, I went underneath the bus to figure out how bad the damages really were. It turns out the driver’s seat is actually mounted on a really think plate steel. It was absolutely fine. The part that was rusted was a sheet metal cover that goes over it, and then, just around the perimeter edges. The factory had covered the driver’s seat mount with a sheet metal surround, and then put vinyl over that. There was an aluminum edge trim around this surround. Everywhere around the edges, the sheet metal had rusted out. If only they had made this out of aluminum, there would have been no rust. After considering the events that could have caused this problem, I believe I have it figured out. This had to be due to mop water seeping in behind the aluminum trim and under the vinyl flooring.

Okay Sherlock, you may have the cause figured out, but what you gonna do about it? After thinking about it a long time I decided to just treat it with POR-15 (to stop the rust) and cover over it. To take it off and replace it would involve a ton of work since the wheel chair lift was still under that area when I did the repair. I had a sheet metal pan made to fit the area and covered right over it. Worked out fine and saved days of labor.

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As they say in literature, "All's well that ends well". :wink:
Darryl
Smyrna GA
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

Installing the Fridge

My fridge installation was a head scratcher for a while. I planned to use a household fridge and was having difficulty deciding how to anchor it in place. Unlike RV fridges, which have a flange around them, house hold fridges are sort of bare. I knew some RV manufacturers were installing household fridges in higher end RV’s. I tried to find one at a local dealer, but drew a blank card. So I had to come up with something entirely home grown. My solution is not the prettiest, but if I find something better later, I’ll change it.

My fridge location has two wall panels, one on each side. On this particular fridge, I bought the old fashion style with the coils on the rear of the unit. They cool by convection only. Some of the newer ones have a fan that blows air over condenser coils and out the front (at the bottom of the unit). I went with the old style because they use less electricity. The caveat is you must allow enough air flow to get back there so the coils can cool. Since my unit is in a hole (so to speak), I placed two ¾ inch spacers on the inside of my walls that actually touch the fridge near the top and the bottom. This provides support to the fridge so that it can’t slide. Since the spacers are on both sides of the fridge, it can’t move either towards the front or rear of the bus. I made the spacers out of Trex board, since it's a sort of plastic. This also allows a lot of air flow around the sides of the fridge to reach the coils.

At this point I needed to figure out a way to fasten the top and bottom of the fridge so that it wouldn’t tip over when turning the bus left or right. In the end, I made a bracket that fits across the top and is secured to both sides of the wall panels. I screwed sheet metal screws through the bracket into the fridge on the top edges of the fridge. So now, the top is securely fastened and is not going anywhere. On the bottom, I took a heavy stainless angle bracket (one used in bathroom partitions) and bolted it to the foot structure of the fridge with quarter inch bolts. I fastened the foot part of the angle bracket to the floor by drilling a hole all the way through the floor and installing a T-nut on the underside of the bus floor. I dropped a bolt though the bracket all the way to the T-nut underneath and tightened it up. Problem solved. If I need to take the fridge out, I can just unscrew the bolt from the top side without having to get under the bus.

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Shown below is the top bracket anchoring the fridge to the walls on either side. One problem I ran into is that the top of the fridge is not flat. I'm guessing this is because the foam they inject them with expands. It makes the bracket look a little wonky, but there’s not much you can do about it. In the rear is the combination switch and outlet I installed for the fridge. This is an easy way to turn it off and on without adjusting the thermostat inside.

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Although it is not the prettiest of ways to anchor a house hold fridge in a bus, I'm pleased to report it does seem to work well.
Darryl
Smyrna GA
2000 Gillig Phantom
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

Electric, Electric, Electric

Perhaps one of the most fun parts for me is the electrical closet. My electrical needs are average for a bus. I installed two roof airs (which are my largest electrical loads), a handful of outlets along the length of the bus, and a couple in the bedroom. There is also a TV and fridge that are 120 V loads. On the outside, in the storage compartment (we transits don't have anything close enough to call a "bay" so I've avoided that :wink: ) I have a small 120v air compressor that only pulls 3 amps. All my electrical lighting is 24 volt. I also have a 24 volt water pump.

On the supply side, I installed a Marinco 50 amp power inlet. My power cord plugs in on the outside. Inside I have two electrical panels. These were made for RV's by Progressive Industries I believe. One of them takes the incoming power from the power inlet and distributes it via breakers. One of the breakers feeds a 3,000 watt inverter. The output of the inverter goes to the other electrical panel. It has breakers for circuits that run through the inverter. To be honest, I already had the inverter and installed it. If I had to buy one, I wouldn't buy one this big. It mostly runs the TV, fridge, and microwave. I have two wall lamps in the bedroom that are also 120 V.

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The inverter is powered by 2 4-D Lifeline AGM batteries. My battery bank is beneath this closet, although it is sealed from the cabinet. If you're going to put batteries inside your living quarters, make sure they are AGM or gel (although I don't recommend gel). These two types are non spillable and do not gas under ordinary circumstances. Regular lead acid batteries produce hydrogen gas, which is flammable.

Since there is a potential for a good deal of heat out of my inverter/charger, I installed two thermostatically controlled fans to remove it. I can't say enough good things about these fans. They were sort of high end fans, made for audio visual cabinets. Their life is supposedly triple ordinary computer fans and they are extremely quiet. You can't hear them run when they are on. They are also 120 Volt. The only bad thing about them was they were not cheap.

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Shown below is two ventilation vents at the bottom of the electrical closet.

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Here's my finished cabinet.

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Darryl
Smyrna GA
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

A Little Old, A Little New

To booth or not to booth. This comes down to your preferences. For me, I love a booth. One of my favorite things to do is get up on a Saturday morning, get on my bike and ride down to the local diner. Find a seat at a booth, order breakfast, and drink coffee. So, with this in mind, I decided to use a booth in the bus. Some people prefer tables and chairs but I'm the opposite. The downside of booths are they take up more space than a table. So bear this in mind if you're trying to decide between the two.

In the pic below, the "new" is my table. I looked for a manufactured table top to fit my seating, but couldn't find one. So, I just made it. The "old" is my seats. Remember this is a budget build. I use as much of the existing as I can. So, I used two seats from the bus for the booth seats. If you get one seat from each side, they face each other and are perfect for a booth. The only thing missing here is the coffee.

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So, at this point in the build I've got a lot of my basics finished. The kitchen has yet to be started and the bathroom sink and shower are just roughed in. But, things are beginning to look more like an RV.

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Darryl
Smyrna GA
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by ol trunt »

Like Jim, your work is beautiful. I did have to laugh though as our dinettes are carbon copies design wise. As Tango would say, "great minds--" Jack
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

Thanks Jack! My dinette is pretty simple. The hardest part was finding the right size circle to mark the corners. Can't remember what I used now.
Darryl
Smyrna GA
2000 Gillig Phantom
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

Shut the Door Please

Like a lot of buses, I’m keeping my entrance door. Unlike a lot of buses, mine is a bi-fold, air operated door. Coaches typically have a single door hung on the front leading edge. This is the most attractive type door and also seals much better than a bi-fold. However, we can’t have everything on a budget build, so I'm going to keep the door that I have. Besides, replacing a bi-fold door would be a major undertaking. If you’ve ever tried to build and hang a replacement door on a bus, it’s not a cakewalk. Many of the examples I’ve seen of owner built doors resulted in a door that wasn't very attractive to me. So to keep cost down, and to preserve what sanity I may still possess, we’re going to improve on what we have and call it a day.

The original door on my coach was operated by the old style transit flip handle valve. Newer transits have an electric switch that operates an electric air valve. To add some functionality to my door, I’m going to convert my manual valve to an electrically operated one. Doing so will allow me to open it from two different locations inside the bus, as well as allow a third location outside. The whole reason for changing it over to electric is because It’s much easier to run 16 gauge electrical wires to these locations, rather than 3/8 nylon air lines.

So the first step was to remove the old manually operated transit door valve. I replaced it with an electrically operated air valve. To control the valve, I purchased an electronic switch that only needs momentary activation to switch states. A simple push of a button or toggle switch will cause it to change states, operate the solenoid, which will open or close the door. Installing this was much simpler than it sounds. The hardest part was finding a place to mount the electronic switch in the jungle of wire in the side electrical panel. The other hard part was finding a 24 volt one. But both were accomplished with a little internet searching and Ebay. I reused a no-longer-need switch on the drivers console for opening the door while seated, added a second switch near the exit stairs, and added a third outside. The outside switch can be disabled inside the bus to prevent the door from being opened at night while you’re asleep (or if you’re gone).

Shown below is a photo of my outside switch. I purchased a water resistant switch and a water resistant cover to go over it. This brings me to one of my biggest screw-ups. The hole where the outside switch resides was already in the side of the bus when I got it. The original proprietors had an outside camera mounted here. The hole was for the wiring harness for the camera. Since the hole was larger than the size I needed for my switch, I had to cover it and mount the switch in the cover. I wanted something stainless since it was outside, but I couldn't find anything the right size. So I went to plan B and bought a plastic cutting board from Walmart, cut a square out and mounted it. Here's where the screw-up happened. Somehow I didn't get it mounted square to the body. It tilts a little. I don't know what really caused it, but I'm blaming it on too much communion wine. That sounds like a much more interesting story than the probable truth, so I'm sticking to it. :mrgreen:

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I've discovered that my air stays up enough to operate this door for about 24 hrs before I need to turn on the electric air compressor. I have one of those very quiet ones, small, 120v. Will easily run off my inverter if I need to. Running it once a day is all I need to keep the door working. You might be interested in seeing the compressor too. It's connected to the auxiliary air tank via a 3/8 air line. I put a bulkhead mount air connector through the compartment wall of the space it's in. This little compressor fills the aux tank in about 2 to 3 minutes. It will also air up my suspension system if it's down, but this takes an additional 5 minutes.

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Darryl
Smyrna GA
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

Steering Wheel Upgrade

Changing the steering wheel on your bus is a simple and cheap upgrade that improves the look and sometimes the feel of your driver's compartment. I changed my old wheel because it looked dated and had been on there for 680,000 miles. I bought a VIP wheel. I think the model number was VIP10-MK1. According to Dave Roe, the engineer, the Gilligs take a model MK1. Gilligs were not listed on their online index, so I had to call them to find out. This wheel cost all of $85.00 at the time.

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Darryl
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

Space Savers for the Bedroom

My bus is a 35 footer. I wish it had been a 40 footer, but it wasn't. So to save space, I cut everything as short as I could get by with so there would be more room up front. This included building walls without framing, which I talked about earlier in this thread. I also used some unconventional items in the bedroom (don't let your mind wander here ---- it's not that exciting). Staying true to our low budget but functional theme, I bought these items from Ikea. These shelves are attached to the wall, are inexpensive, and are very functional.

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The black storage bins shown below at the foot of the beds are a functional replacement for a small chest-of-drawers. The top pulls out to reveal a large storage area for socks, underwear, hankys, etc. Honestly, I have plenty of room for storage in this bedroom. As you can see, I left the ceiling grab bar intact in the bedroom for hanging clothes. There's lots of things like this you can do that is unconventional but works very well. You just need to stop thinking that everything needs to be the same as in your house.

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Last edited by LuckyChow on Sat May 09, 2015 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Darryl
Smyrna GA
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by LuckyChow »

Kitchen Cabinets

Arguably the most used and important place in the bus is the kitchen. Well, at least for me anyway. I need to stay away from the kitchen much more than I do, but that's another story. My kitchen was the last thing I built. I guess the reason was because it's also one of the more expensive parts of the conversion and for me, one that I had the least confidence in myself for doing a good job. Little by little I eased into it and at a certain point, you just dive on in because it's too late to do anything else.

Having told of my reluctance let me say I'm not a plumber. I'll claim the title of back yard electrician with humility, but plumbing is not my area of expertise. This is probably due to inexperience, but I will say, I'm better now than when I started. All my family are union electricians (except for me) so I grew up in that environment. Nobody in my household did plumbing. If we had a plumbing problem, we always called one.

Okay, meanwhile back at the ranch, I'm trying to keep this a budget build. My knowledge of cabinetry is right up there with my knowledge of time travel. My workshop is two saw horses with a piece of plywood on top, a circular saw, and a homemade fence. Do I dare try to build my own cabinets? Not this time. Maybe the next bus. So I decide to go inexpensive but with some precautions. The inexpensive part is I bought Ikea cabinets. I altered them to fit my needs, but still in the end they are Ikea. The precautions are I sealed every edge that had exposed particle board with urethane. I think these will do nicely and hold up fine. And, I don't have a fortune sunk into them.

So, without further ado, tell me what you think.

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There were lots of compromises here. I wanted longer/more cabinets, but in the end there is only so much space. I did not install a cook top. There were several reasons for this, not the least of which is I rarely fry anything. The biggest reason is because I wanted to maximize the counter space available. If I want to cook anything in a pot or pan, I have an induction cooktop I pull out and plug in. I also carry an electric skillet and the full compliment of pots and pans and baking dishes. The microwave is also a convection oven. I also mounted my sink sideways to save even more counter space. After using it for a while, I don't find it limits me in any way and I like it. I wouldn't change anything if I had to do it over.
Darryl
Smyrna GA
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Re: Fun with the Phantom

Post by Lostranger »

Darryl, your conversion surprises and delights me. Love your resourcefulness and the way you think things through. You and I both had "low budget, no frills" as a goal, and yet we take different routes. The only common technique we've chosen is the use of frameless walls. I love what you've done even though our approach is so different. Our need for full-time shelter is a key factor in the difference, but I have a feeling that you would do "full time" differently as well. Your bus is a testimony to ingenuity and elegant frugality.

The major point both our busses underscore is that the choice of a transit platform makes it possible for mere mortals to own and convert a thoroughly modern bus. You don't need me to tell you that the quality of Gillig engineering and materials is outstanding. Now that all the transit companies have gone to low floor models, that may well drive the price of retired transits even lower. All the more reason to learn to "think outside the coach."

Thanks again for a delightful and informative thread.

Jim
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