First, I love this site! Being a tinkerer, remodeler, rebuilder and jack of all trades by nature...this lifestyle speaks to me.
In October I will be returning to the 'States after another 1-year stint overseas. My new "career" is in project work so I will be working in different part of the US/Canada every 3-24 months. I will never give up my bungalow in Tulsa, OK, but a housebus or housetruck strikes the right cord while all but the old Airstream's and Spartans leave me dead flat.
That being said, I am also a research fanatic so I have to ask the questions:
Which platform is less challenging to find parts for? For example; older Mack or International truck (double-rear-axle flatbeds) or a specific models of Eagle, GMC, etc. buses?
Which is the harder build up if you are starting from scratch? I know from experience building a new addition to a house is often easier than restoring/adapting an old section of the same house.
I currently live in a 20 ft connex (basically a shipping container adapted to living quarters), so I figure realistically I would need about 30 ft of living space so I could add a kitchen and office area. The only other requirements are the ability to carry my 1979 BMW R100 motorcycle and my Newfie with me .
Just to make things more challenging for me, I haven't welded since 1988 and then only a short class. I would love to learn again, but not in the actual construction of my home.
Let me know what you think...
Onkel Udo
Pitfalls of various platforms
Moderator: TMAX
Hi Onkel;
Sorry for the late greeting, but as you may have read elsewhere in the forum, I'm busy moving, so I don't get to spend as much time catching up as I'd like.
Some others here may have some advice, but I'd say that you should try to find a vehicle that you can either afford to have repaired, or one that you can do all the repairs yourself. Finding parts is very important, so choose something that is still supported with aftermarket replacement parts. Look around for similar models that are still on the street, the chances are better that popular vehicles are being maintained and that the parts are available. Ever try to find parts for a 1960 Rambler?
Here's a like to a very informative page that will tell you a lot about the various chassis configurations and such: http://www.pardo.net/bus-0035/buses.html It's a ~very~ long page, so leave yourself lots of time to read it carefully.
Welding: My advice is:
Sorry for the late greeting, but as you may have read elsewhere in the forum, I'm busy moving, so I don't get to spend as much time catching up as I'd like.
Some others here may have some advice, but I'd say that you should try to find a vehicle that you can either afford to have repaired, or one that you can do all the repairs yourself. Finding parts is very important, so choose something that is still supported with aftermarket replacement parts. Look around for similar models that are still on the street, the chances are better that popular vehicles are being maintained and that the parts are available. Ever try to find parts for a 1960 Rambler?
Here's a like to a very informative page that will tell you a lot about the various chassis configurations and such: http://www.pardo.net/bus-0035/buses.html It's a ~very~ long page, so leave yourself lots of time to read it carefully.
Welding: My advice is:
- Get a modern wire feed MIG welder that uses shield gas (argon/carbon dioxide)
- Invest in one of those new fangled self-darkening welding helmets. I got one last year, and it's the BEST!
-
Onkel Udo
Thanks for the advise. By the way, love the Crown project!
Oddly what seems to be the most attractive and common on the market are MCI-7/8's and GM 4106's. These seem to run about $7-12,000 which is a little over my limit but possible if I stage in the remodel while spending a few months in an apartment at my first job.
The other very common vehicle seems to be the Blue Bird All American. There are tons of these out there with the 5.9 Cummings and Allison automatic (various versions of both engine and tranny). These are very attractive except for the low roof (6'2"), too low to effectively insulate, and modest power of the engine. Also, some seem geared too low for true interstate travel. These also have the attraction of the rear side-entry for the wheelchair lift which would be the perfect location for a motorcycle ramp (although I doubt the actual lift could raise a 500 lb bike).
Anyone have any opinions on the Bluebirds?
Thanks,
Onkel Udo
Oddly what seems to be the most attractive and common on the market are MCI-7/8's and GM 4106's. These seem to run about $7-12,000 which is a little over my limit but possible if I stage in the remodel while spending a few months in an apartment at my first job.
The other very common vehicle seems to be the Blue Bird All American. There are tons of these out there with the 5.9 Cummings and Allison automatic (various versions of both engine and tranny). These are very attractive except for the low roof (6'2"), too low to effectively insulate, and modest power of the engine. Also, some seem geared too low for true interstate travel. These also have the attraction of the rear side-entry for the wheelchair lift which would be the perfect location for a motorcycle ramp (although I doubt the actual lift could raise a 500 lb bike).
Anyone have any opinions on the Bluebirds?
Thanks,
Onkel Udo
well, I have an 85 bluebird with a GMC chasis. Yes, the roof height is a bit limiting, however if you are truly motivated you can remove the ceiling pannels and insulate under them which gives you another 2" insulation. Consider spray on for that, it gets into all the cracks. They are not the speediest machines out there. Mine is an underpowered 366 that runs off propane (cheaper and more enviromentally friendly) and we have moved across Canada twice, loaded to the gills and towing a trailer. It was fine on the flats, but slow on the big passes. However I am ok travelling at 115 kmh. It's a tradeoff. What you gain is the ability to find used parts and people who know how to work on you bus anywhere becuase they are so common. They are also very overbuilt which allows allot of freedom in what you would like to do with them.
I hope this does not offend if I post another forum here, but this one is dedicated to the conversion of ex-school busses for various projects and might have a bit more specifics.
http://www.skoolie.net/
-Richard
I hope this does not offend if I post another forum here, but this one is dedicated to the conversion of ex-school busses for various projects and might have a bit more specifics.
http://www.skoolie.net/
-Richard
No problem ~ever~ directing people to any helpful outside resources on this forum, it's supposed to be all about sharing information freely!captainkf wrote:I hope this does not offend if I post another forum here, but this one is dedicated to the conversion of ex-school busses for various projects and might have a bit more specifics.
http://www.skoolie.net/
-
Mark R. Obtinario
- Seasoned Nomadicista
- Posts: 340
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:19 am
- Location: Winlock, WA
- Contact:
When one starts asking questions about what is the best platform upon which you are going to build your new home, you are going to get a number of responses for and against every type of platform out there.
Before you get into converting a platform into your new home you need to first decide how you are going to be using your new home.
You indicate you will be traveling a lot between jobs but you will be staying in one place from 3-24 months.
Staying hooked up to shore power a lot is going to result in vastly different requirements than if you were going to be boondocking for the majority of the time. The size of you water and waste tanks will not need to be nearly as large when you are hooked up to shore power as compared to being fully self-contained out in the boondocks. Your electrical service will also be different, particularly if you don't intend to install a generator.
As far as traveling between locations, the truck underneath everything will determine how fast and economically it is going to be going from point A to point B. In fact some people who haven't been able to find the bus that most meets their needs have made their new home on a Class 7 or 8 truck.
School buses, particularly conventional Type 'C' school buses, are for the most part designed and built to spend their service life making lots of stops in neighborhoods. Most school buses, even heavy duty Type 'D' school buses, are not designed and built to keep up out on the interstate. The real advantage in school buses is there are a lot of them out there making the upfront cost relatively low (I have purchased eight different school buses for an average price of $1250.00). School buses can come as short as 20' and as long as 40'. None are 102" wide. Some 40' school buses came with a tandem dual third axle that was sometimes a driven axle.
Transit buses generally are not geared for highway travel either. The advantage in transit buses is they do come in 102" wide versions as long as 60'. The ceiling height is usually much greater than in any other kind of bus and the floors generally are already flat. Very, very few ever came from the factory with any kind of luggage compartment. And like school buses, there isn't a lot of room underneath to put very large compartments. Transit buses have used air suspension for the most part fot the last forty years. Some Gillig Phantoms have utilized thier own suspension that uses air bags but not in the way anyone else has.
Motor coaches are geared to get out and go on the highway. Besides their ability to get and out go the highway coaches, particularly some of the later GM coaches, have huge underside luggage bays (you can probably park your motorcycle inside a Buffalo standing up). Every coach except for the Eagles and Flx's use some sort of air suspension (the Eagle and Flx buses used torsion bars). The real downside of a highway coach is they are relatively heavy, much taller than any other kind of bus, and they are not real user friendly (comparitively speaking) if you are in heavy urban traffic. They are available in lengths from 35-45' and up to 102" wide. Almost all coaches 40' and longer have a third axle (either a tag or a bogey).
As far as specific vehicles go, Eagles have some of the largest luggage bays but Eagles are notorious for rust. Eagles lend themselves to roof raising and slides better than any other coach. Even though a company has restarted making Eagles, Eagle specific parts and service are sort of hit or miss. Finding someone who can correctly adjust the torsalastic suspension is becoming a real problem as well.
GM coaches, both highway and transit coaches, are the lightest due to their monocoque type of construction. They do not lend themselves to roof raising or slides well at all. The V-drive GM used will severely limit your power package options. Automatics in the highway coaches were not an option or standard equipment until some of the last models. Any retrofit automatics can have disastorous results if the bulkheads are not reinforced properly.
MCI has built more highway coaches than all of the other coach builders combined. This tends to make their price much more affordable. Parts are available overnight to just about anywhere from MCI and several other bus parts companies. Under the skin there are very few differences between a MCI-7, -8, -9, -10, or -12. The real problems with the -7, -8, and -9 (particularly the -7 and the -8 and any automatic equipped -7, -8, or -9) is they overheat. It isn't a question of if they are going to overheat, it is a question of when. And when is whenever it gets over 90 degrees or if you are going over any mountain when the temperature is over 70 degrees.
As far as school buses go, the three big names are Thomas, Blue Bird, and I-C (International). All of the others have since gone out of business and parts support for any brand specific stuff is virtually non-existent. You will find very few, if any, with manual transmissions newer than 1990. Luggage compartments are the exception and not the rule. Parts and service for the I-C are available from any International dealer. Parts and service for the Thomas is supposed to be available from any Freightliner dealer as well as the Thomas dealer. Blue Bird is supported only by their own dealer network. The upside of parts and service is most of the running gear on any of the school buses is off the shelf stuff that is available at just about any truck parts outlet. Engines in the I-C buses are only IHC engines, the most common being the 6.9/7.3L V-8 and the DT466. Engines in the Blue Birds and Thomas have been from Cummins, Cat, and Detroit. Some of the newest Thomas have come with Mercedes-Benz engines. The most enginesin the last twenty years are the Cat 3208 and 3126 and the Cummins 5.9 and 8.3.
Again, it all comes down to what you are planning to do with your new home. And only you can determine what is best for you.
Good luck on your search.
Mark O.
Before you get into converting a platform into your new home you need to first decide how you are going to be using your new home.
You indicate you will be traveling a lot between jobs but you will be staying in one place from 3-24 months.
Staying hooked up to shore power a lot is going to result in vastly different requirements than if you were going to be boondocking for the majority of the time. The size of you water and waste tanks will not need to be nearly as large when you are hooked up to shore power as compared to being fully self-contained out in the boondocks. Your electrical service will also be different, particularly if you don't intend to install a generator.
As far as traveling between locations, the truck underneath everything will determine how fast and economically it is going to be going from point A to point B. In fact some people who haven't been able to find the bus that most meets their needs have made their new home on a Class 7 or 8 truck.
School buses, particularly conventional Type 'C' school buses, are for the most part designed and built to spend their service life making lots of stops in neighborhoods. Most school buses, even heavy duty Type 'D' school buses, are not designed and built to keep up out on the interstate. The real advantage in school buses is there are a lot of them out there making the upfront cost relatively low (I have purchased eight different school buses for an average price of $1250.00). School buses can come as short as 20' and as long as 40'. None are 102" wide. Some 40' school buses came with a tandem dual third axle that was sometimes a driven axle.
Transit buses generally are not geared for highway travel either. The advantage in transit buses is they do come in 102" wide versions as long as 60'. The ceiling height is usually much greater than in any other kind of bus and the floors generally are already flat. Very, very few ever came from the factory with any kind of luggage compartment. And like school buses, there isn't a lot of room underneath to put very large compartments. Transit buses have used air suspension for the most part fot the last forty years. Some Gillig Phantoms have utilized thier own suspension that uses air bags but not in the way anyone else has.
Motor coaches are geared to get out and go on the highway. Besides their ability to get and out go the highway coaches, particularly some of the later GM coaches, have huge underside luggage bays (you can probably park your motorcycle inside a Buffalo standing up). Every coach except for the Eagles and Flx's use some sort of air suspension (the Eagle and Flx buses used torsion bars). The real downside of a highway coach is they are relatively heavy, much taller than any other kind of bus, and they are not real user friendly (comparitively speaking) if you are in heavy urban traffic. They are available in lengths from 35-45' and up to 102" wide. Almost all coaches 40' and longer have a third axle (either a tag or a bogey).
As far as specific vehicles go, Eagles have some of the largest luggage bays but Eagles are notorious for rust. Eagles lend themselves to roof raising and slides better than any other coach. Even though a company has restarted making Eagles, Eagle specific parts and service are sort of hit or miss. Finding someone who can correctly adjust the torsalastic suspension is becoming a real problem as well.
GM coaches, both highway and transit coaches, are the lightest due to their monocoque type of construction. They do not lend themselves to roof raising or slides well at all. The V-drive GM used will severely limit your power package options. Automatics in the highway coaches were not an option or standard equipment until some of the last models. Any retrofit automatics can have disastorous results if the bulkheads are not reinforced properly.
MCI has built more highway coaches than all of the other coach builders combined. This tends to make their price much more affordable. Parts are available overnight to just about anywhere from MCI and several other bus parts companies. Under the skin there are very few differences between a MCI-7, -8, -9, -10, or -12. The real problems with the -7, -8, and -9 (particularly the -7 and the -8 and any automatic equipped -7, -8, or -9) is they overheat. It isn't a question of if they are going to overheat, it is a question of when. And when is whenever it gets over 90 degrees or if you are going over any mountain when the temperature is over 70 degrees.
As far as school buses go, the three big names are Thomas, Blue Bird, and I-C (International). All of the others have since gone out of business and parts support for any brand specific stuff is virtually non-existent. You will find very few, if any, with manual transmissions newer than 1990. Luggage compartments are the exception and not the rule. Parts and service for the I-C are available from any International dealer. Parts and service for the Thomas is supposed to be available from any Freightliner dealer as well as the Thomas dealer. Blue Bird is supported only by their own dealer network. The upside of parts and service is most of the running gear on any of the school buses is off the shelf stuff that is available at just about any truck parts outlet. Engines in the I-C buses are only IHC engines, the most common being the 6.9/7.3L V-8 and the DT466. Engines in the Blue Birds and Thomas have been from Cummins, Cat, and Detroit. Some of the newest Thomas have come with Mercedes-Benz engines. The most enginesin the last twenty years are the Cat 3208 and 3126 and the Cummins 5.9 and 8.3.
Again, it all comes down to what you are planning to do with your new home. And only you can determine what is best for you.
Good luck on your search.
Mark O.
-
Onkel Udo
Clarification on use...
OK, based on the last reply from Mark it looks like I did not clarify the use of the coach well enough...so here it goes:
I will be living full-time in the coach hooked up to shore power most of the time. All the contracts in my near future include per diem which will handle the RV park extortion...I mean charges.
Most of the jobs will include a rental car allowance or a company truck so I do not need a Toad, but I absolutely want the ability to take the bike with me.
My wife will be visiting whatever jobsite I am working at for the summer when she is not in school, but I will be living alone in the rig 90% of the time.
Contracts tend to last 3-12 months with some as long as 24 months. This means I will move an average of once or twice per year to relocate and I will most likely be on the road for pleasure 4-5 weeks per year...some of this time may be on the motorcycle leaving the rig at the RV park.
I will not always take contiguous contracts so there is a good chance the rig will serve duty as a pleasure RV when I am waiting for the next job to start. In these instances boondocking for two people plus two dogs for 3-4 days at a stretch will be the norm.
What I am getting at here is that the rig will be a "park model" most of the time so the systems will be geared toward shore power. Like most people though, I want the best of both worlds.
If I were to break it down my process of building would be make the bus/truck a well insulated shell, wired for mostly electric services, with a holding tanks sufficient for short-term boondocking (50-75 Gal each). When money and time became available, the battery bank would be upgraded and the solar panels installed. The last thing to be added would be a generator capable of running the AC at a while not hooked to shore power or driving...lets just say I have lived in some pretty harsh conditions without AC and it can be done.
I hope that helps. As I said before I am in the "research-it-to-death" stage of planning (this stage drives my wife batty, but she always appreciates the outcome).
Thanks for all the suggestions/information,
Onkel Udo
I will be living full-time in the coach hooked up to shore power most of the time. All the contracts in my near future include per diem which will handle the RV park extortion...I mean charges.
Most of the jobs will include a rental car allowance or a company truck so I do not need a Toad, but I absolutely want the ability to take the bike with me.
My wife will be visiting whatever jobsite I am working at for the summer when she is not in school, but I will be living alone in the rig 90% of the time.
Contracts tend to last 3-12 months with some as long as 24 months. This means I will move an average of once or twice per year to relocate and I will most likely be on the road for pleasure 4-5 weeks per year...some of this time may be on the motorcycle leaving the rig at the RV park.
I will not always take contiguous contracts so there is a good chance the rig will serve duty as a pleasure RV when I am waiting for the next job to start. In these instances boondocking for two people plus two dogs for 3-4 days at a stretch will be the norm.
What I am getting at here is that the rig will be a "park model" most of the time so the systems will be geared toward shore power. Like most people though, I want the best of both worlds.
If I were to break it down my process of building would be make the bus/truck a well insulated shell, wired for mostly electric services, with a holding tanks sufficient for short-term boondocking (50-75 Gal each). When money and time became available, the battery bank would be upgraded and the solar panels installed. The last thing to be added would be a generator capable of running the AC at a while not hooked to shore power or driving...lets just say I have lived in some pretty harsh conditions without AC and it can be done.
I hope that helps. As I said before I am in the "research-it-to-death" stage of planning (this stage drives my wife batty, but she always appreciates the outcome).
Thanks for all the suggestions/information,
Onkel Udo
-
Mark R. Obtinario
- Seasoned Nomadicista
- Posts: 340
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:19 am
- Location: Winlock, WA
- Contact:
You indicated how you would be living in your new home but you haven't indicated where you would be living in your new home.
The sorts of roads and types of places to which you will be traveling will sort of dictate what sort of platform with which you will start.
If you are going to always be close to the interstate a converted highway coach would most likely be your best choice--up to 102" wide and up to 45' long and able to go highway speeds. But if you are going to spend a significant amount of time on secondary highways or off pavement a highway coach would not be such a good choice.
The best choice for getting off the interstate or off pavement would be the school bus, particularly the conventional Type 'C' bus. They are built on a Class 5-6 truck chassis which means parts and pieces are available all over for relatively inexpensive prices. They are also built to go into neighborhoods and on cow trails to pick up students. Which means they will rarely go over the weight restrictions, height restrictions, and length restrictions you will find on a lot of the back roads around the country (you really don't want to have to back up for miles because you can't turn around and because the bridge is too low or not stout enough to support your home). School buses also have a much higher ground clearance than a transit or highway coach which is really handy if you are on unimproved roads.
Because school buses are body on frame construction, extending the rear frame for a bike carrier or installing a Class IV or V trailer hitch is no problem. Improper trailer hitch installation on a highway coach can end up with the power package pulled out of the back of the bus or the whole back of the coach torn off.
Since the interior dimensions of a 35-40' school bus is not that different from a 35-40' highway coach, deciding ahead of time where the majority of the driving is going to be will make the decision of what sort of platform you are going to use much easier.
Also take into consideration the bigger the platform the more expensive it is going to be to keep it going. Three axles cost more than 50% more than two axles. A highway coach that uses Class 7-8 truck parts costs more to maintain and repair than a school bus that uses Class 5-6 truck parts. A ten year old school bus with an electronically controlled engine and transmission is going to be much more fuel efficient than a twenty-five year old mechanically controlled highway coach and the upfront purchase price is going to be similar.
Only you can determine what is best for your situation. But before you purchase anything, remember not to fall in love with any particular vehicle. If you can't get what you want for what you want to pay, go on. There are literally thousands of other vehicles out there and for the right price can be purchased. And most important, have the vehicle checked out by someone who knows that kind of vehicle before you make any offers.
Good luck.
Mark O.
The sorts of roads and types of places to which you will be traveling will sort of dictate what sort of platform with which you will start.
If you are going to always be close to the interstate a converted highway coach would most likely be your best choice--up to 102" wide and up to 45' long and able to go highway speeds. But if you are going to spend a significant amount of time on secondary highways or off pavement a highway coach would not be such a good choice.
The best choice for getting off the interstate or off pavement would be the school bus, particularly the conventional Type 'C' bus. They are built on a Class 5-6 truck chassis which means parts and pieces are available all over for relatively inexpensive prices. They are also built to go into neighborhoods and on cow trails to pick up students. Which means they will rarely go over the weight restrictions, height restrictions, and length restrictions you will find on a lot of the back roads around the country (you really don't want to have to back up for miles because you can't turn around and because the bridge is too low or not stout enough to support your home). School buses also have a much higher ground clearance than a transit or highway coach which is really handy if you are on unimproved roads.
Because school buses are body on frame construction, extending the rear frame for a bike carrier or installing a Class IV or V trailer hitch is no problem. Improper trailer hitch installation on a highway coach can end up with the power package pulled out of the back of the bus or the whole back of the coach torn off.
Since the interior dimensions of a 35-40' school bus is not that different from a 35-40' highway coach, deciding ahead of time where the majority of the driving is going to be will make the decision of what sort of platform you are going to use much easier.
Also take into consideration the bigger the platform the more expensive it is going to be to keep it going. Three axles cost more than 50% more than two axles. A highway coach that uses Class 7-8 truck parts costs more to maintain and repair than a school bus that uses Class 5-6 truck parts. A ten year old school bus with an electronically controlled engine and transmission is going to be much more fuel efficient than a twenty-five year old mechanically controlled highway coach and the upfront purchase price is going to be similar.
Only you can determine what is best for your situation. But before you purchase anything, remember not to fall in love with any particular vehicle. If you can't get what you want for what you want to pay, go on. There are literally thousands of other vehicles out there and for the right price can be purchased. And most important, have the vehicle checked out by someone who knows that kind of vehicle before you make any offers.
Good luck.
Mark O.
Small world
.Onkel Udo from the Boxerworks Forum, I presume? Small world!
Elliot
1992 Bluebird TC2000 Front Engine, Cummins 5.9, Allison MT643
1992 Bluebird TC2000 Front Engine, Cummins 5.9, Allison MT643
Research, he wants?
Research, he gets.
Modern Intercity Coaches: A Review of Over-The-Road Coaches and Manufacturers Active in the United States and Canada from 1953 to 1993
$62 at Amazon.com. A tiny fraction of what you would pay for the wrong bus.
American Buses (Crestline Series) Amazon or
http://www.abebooks.com a broker for used book sellers.
And my Backflip:
http://www.backflip.com/members/kd5kfl/10863880
Backflip lets you keep your URLs on the web. If you have access to the ninnynet, you have access to your URLs. Free.
My choices: RTS II with 4.56 gears. 6'8 headroom. Robust. 6V92TA. Disadvantages: no ground clearance, CDL required.
Crown. Looks like a DC3 with the wings plucked off. Robust. 19,000 pounds, well below CDL requirements. Available in tandem axle configuration. Unlike other tandem buses, all wheel drive. 8 driving wheels, ten braking wheels. Available with wheel sanders. Disadvantages: 2 whole engine choices, both very out of date: DD 6-71 or Cummins 220.
RTS IIs and Crowns can be found for ~$4500.
Research, he gets.
Modern Intercity Coaches: A Review of Over-The-Road Coaches and Manufacturers Active in the United States and Canada from 1953 to 1993
$62 at Amazon.com. A tiny fraction of what you would pay for the wrong bus.
American Buses (Crestline Series) Amazon or
http://www.abebooks.com a broker for used book sellers.
And my Backflip:
http://www.backflip.com/members/kd5kfl/10863880
Backflip lets you keep your URLs on the web. If you have access to the ninnynet, you have access to your URLs. Free.
My choices: RTS II with 4.56 gears. 6'8 headroom. Robust. 6V92TA. Disadvantages: no ground clearance, CDL required.
Crown. Looks like a DC3 with the wings plucked off. Robust. 19,000 pounds, well below CDL requirements. Available in tandem axle configuration. Unlike other tandem buses, all wheel drive. 8 driving wheels, ten braking wheels. Available with wheel sanders. Disadvantages: 2 whole engine choices, both very out of date: DD 6-71 or Cummins 220.
RTS IIs and Crowns can be found for ~$4500.
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