There are advantages and dissadvantages to different types of welders. I thought I would start a discussion about them here. I will start by posting a link to a site that discusses it some.
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/stick-welding.html
It would be nice to have some different feed back and points of view.
The good and the bad of different welding styles:
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Jones'n4chrome
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I have taught welding since 1976, and have seen lots of good and bad welders, and have welded with lots of different machines and techniques over the years. So to keep things simple-
It is easy to lay a nice bead with a wire feed welder, but you may not have adequate penetration, and it is easy with a wire feed or MIG welder to have weld embrittlement or weld contamination. You must clean the metal you are welding on of all paint, rust, grease, etc. After you gain experience welding, you will be able to guage the correct depth of penetration with a wire feed welder by watching the ongoing weld puddle, and the appearance of any undercut on the edges of the weld. A knowledge of metal characteristics, heat ranges, and wire speed helps also. You cannot weld with a wire feed welder in anything stronger then a very very mild breeze since the wind blows away the protective gas shield that gives your weld strength and integrity! So if you are welding outside, or in a drafty shop then you have no choice but to weld with a stick welder, or a tig welder.
The easiest method of welding with a stick welder is with a DC welder set on reverse polarity so that the electrical charge runs from the stick to the work. Good old E6011 welding rod (sometimes known as "farmer's rod") works well for all around general welding, and it works well to "float" off any rust, paint, grease, etc that would contaminate the weld. Many folks like to stick weld with 7014 or 7018 low hydrogen rod, it is very strong and is easier to run uphill or overhead then with 6011.
A new welder running the low hydrogen rods can sometimes get confused about what is happening in the weld puddle, because the low hydrogen rods leave a very thick overcoating of protective material to cover the weld with while cooling to prevent oxygen weld contamination or embrittlement. The slag-like flux material left over the weld after a pass, and which is chipped off after the weld has cooled, sometimes appears to be part of the welding puddle during the welding process and knowing and understanding what is part of the weld puddle and what is occuring there is very important to having a correct, strong, non-contaminated weld.
With a stick welder, and even a wire feed welder I like to see a very very small amount of undercut on the edge of the weld material where the weld puddle has traveled, this indicates to me that there is usually adequate penetration. This is in preference to a weld bead that is humped up too high over the welding work surface which indicates a welding heat range that is too low, or a weld pass at too high of a speed. Too much undercut happens when the heat range is too high, or the weld travel speed is too slow, and too much undercut weakens the weld joint.
I encourage new welders to learn on a stick welder, then they learn to maintain a correct distance from stick to weld puddle, and the correct speed to travel, and to watch the weld puddle for the correct penetration, depth of undercut, and to leave the correct amount of weld material for a strong weld. I strongly discourage learning to weld on an AC "buzz box" which is of course the cheapest welder to buy. A welding machine with the option of DC current will produce a better weld for beginning welders, it is easier to run the weld uphill or overhead. A buzz box is barely adequate for a homeowner or a farmer, in the hands of an experienced welder one can turn out acceptable welds with the buzz box, but the DC welding option is much preferred by experienced welders.
The best welder I ever saw, for gas welding, or stick welding was a college student I had in my class who was a young lady. She grasped the concepts, understood the theory, and could lay down better welds uphill, overhead, etc better then most of us could lay down a flat bead! She was a pre-med student so I don't know if she ever used her welding skills, but she was very good! And when I subjected her welds to the "heartbreak" press to check for embrittlement, contamination, etc- her's were always top rate. (Even better then me, and in my youth I thought I was pretty good- one might even say I was a little cocky about my supposed abilities
)
I have seen alot of very poor, even dangerous welds in my work over the years, and have redone and corrected welds done by others that were not up to "code", I believe that some of the welds were even laid down by chickens- they were so bad!
I have also done weld inspections on state or federal mandated performance work on different jobs, so I have seen alot of welds in my day. If your life were to depent on your welding, the strength and the integrity of your work (which it often does when you weld on things like trailers, hitches, etc) then you really want to get it down pat, really learn the theory, grasp those concepts. and understand what is happening in that weld puddle.
Allright folks, class over and dismissed for today!
It is easy to lay a nice bead with a wire feed welder, but you may not have adequate penetration, and it is easy with a wire feed or MIG welder to have weld embrittlement or weld contamination. You must clean the metal you are welding on of all paint, rust, grease, etc. After you gain experience welding, you will be able to guage the correct depth of penetration with a wire feed welder by watching the ongoing weld puddle, and the appearance of any undercut on the edges of the weld. A knowledge of metal characteristics, heat ranges, and wire speed helps also. You cannot weld with a wire feed welder in anything stronger then a very very mild breeze since the wind blows away the protective gas shield that gives your weld strength and integrity! So if you are welding outside, or in a drafty shop then you have no choice but to weld with a stick welder, or a tig welder.
The easiest method of welding with a stick welder is with a DC welder set on reverse polarity so that the electrical charge runs from the stick to the work. Good old E6011 welding rod (sometimes known as "farmer's rod") works well for all around general welding, and it works well to "float" off any rust, paint, grease, etc that would contaminate the weld. Many folks like to stick weld with 7014 or 7018 low hydrogen rod, it is very strong and is easier to run uphill or overhead then with 6011.
A new welder running the low hydrogen rods can sometimes get confused about what is happening in the weld puddle, because the low hydrogen rods leave a very thick overcoating of protective material to cover the weld with while cooling to prevent oxygen weld contamination or embrittlement. The slag-like flux material left over the weld after a pass, and which is chipped off after the weld has cooled, sometimes appears to be part of the welding puddle during the welding process and knowing and understanding what is part of the weld puddle and what is occuring there is very important to having a correct, strong, non-contaminated weld.
With a stick welder, and even a wire feed welder I like to see a very very small amount of undercut on the edge of the weld material where the weld puddle has traveled, this indicates to me that there is usually adequate penetration. This is in preference to a weld bead that is humped up too high over the welding work surface which indicates a welding heat range that is too low, or a weld pass at too high of a speed. Too much undercut happens when the heat range is too high, or the weld travel speed is too slow, and too much undercut weakens the weld joint.
I encourage new welders to learn on a stick welder, then they learn to maintain a correct distance from stick to weld puddle, and the correct speed to travel, and to watch the weld puddle for the correct penetration, depth of undercut, and to leave the correct amount of weld material for a strong weld. I strongly discourage learning to weld on an AC "buzz box" which is of course the cheapest welder to buy. A welding machine with the option of DC current will produce a better weld for beginning welders, it is easier to run the weld uphill or overhead. A buzz box is barely adequate for a homeowner or a farmer, in the hands of an experienced welder one can turn out acceptable welds with the buzz box, but the DC welding option is much preferred by experienced welders.
The best welder I ever saw, for gas welding, or stick welding was a college student I had in my class who was a young lady. She grasped the concepts, understood the theory, and could lay down better welds uphill, overhead, etc better then most of us could lay down a flat bead! She was a pre-med student so I don't know if she ever used her welding skills, but she was very good! And when I subjected her welds to the "heartbreak" press to check for embrittlement, contamination, etc- her's were always top rate. (Even better then me, and in my youth I thought I was pretty good- one might even say I was a little cocky about my supposed abilities
)I have seen alot of very poor, even dangerous welds in my work over the years, and have redone and corrected welds done by others that were not up to "code", I believe that some of the welds were even laid down by chickens- they were so bad!
I have also done weld inspections on state or federal mandated performance work on different jobs, so I have seen alot of welds in my day. If your life were to depent on your welding, the strength and the integrity of your work (which it often does when you weld on things like trailers, hitches, etc) then you really want to get it down pat, really learn the theory, grasp those concepts. and understand what is happening in that weld puddle.
Allright folks, class over and dismissed for today!
Hey DB, I learned alot from that class. 
Thank you.
I have also been studying the different rods, and what they are for. For example: the higher the first couple of numbers, the higher psi. 6011 rod, is rated at 60,000 psi, 7014 is rated at 70,000 psi. It is those first numbers, the 60, and the 70, and so forth, that determine the psi rating of the rod. So yes, I am planning to get practice with some of the higher numbers for greater psi before I tackle welding my hitch on my bus. I only intend using a mig to do the sheet metal welding to replace some of the windows.
I appreciate all the discussion here, that's how we learn.
DB,
, I didn't realize you were a welding instructor.
Thank you.I have also been studying the different rods, and what they are for. For example: the higher the first couple of numbers, the higher psi. 6011 rod, is rated at 60,000 psi, 7014 is rated at 70,000 psi. It is those first numbers, the 60, and the 70, and so forth, that determine the psi rating of the rod. So yes, I am planning to get practice with some of the higher numbers for greater psi before I tackle welding my hitch on my bus. I only intend using a mig to do the sheet metal welding to replace some of the windows.
I appreciate all the discussion here, that's how we learn.
DB,
, I didn't realize you were a welding instructor.
I do have one very important safety tip I would like to add to this thread. Never wear a polyester type material, or something that "melts" when welding. That is the number one lesson I remember learning. However, if you have ever seen the burn one gets from melting clothing "into" your skin, you'll pay attention better to your choice of clothing materials.
I know, this has nothing to do with "types" of welding. I just thought it fit here.
I know, this has nothing to do with "types" of welding. I just thought it fit here.
Hey!
Now this I know something about....
Granny you are so right! If you don't have leathers then wear cotton. The man made fibers all stick you like melted garbage bags and the pain never stops. Cotton simply burns and won't stick to you.
Masks...11 or 12 shade for stick welding but 9 for the little migs. Glacier glasses for gas welding with oxy/propane. Acetylene/Oxy torches need better glasses as the flame is brighter.
Anyone cutting with those chinese Oxy/gasoline torches?
http://www.petrogen.com/
My ideas on the trailer hitch would be to go crazy with prep. Grinding away all rust, and deep Ving all the weldments. If all I had to work with was a buzz box then I'd use 6011 to tack everything together, regrind/chip/wheel everything and then either suffer through some 3/16ths 7018 @90 amps with beucoup regrinds or do the whole thing in 6011 with lost of chipping. OR.....
Now this I know something about....
Granny you are so right! If you don't have leathers then wear cotton. The man made fibers all stick you like melted garbage bags and the pain never stops. Cotton simply burns and won't stick to you.
Masks...11 or 12 shade for stick welding but 9 for the little migs. Glacier glasses for gas welding with oxy/propane. Acetylene/Oxy torches need better glasses as the flame is brighter.
Anyone cutting with those chinese Oxy/gasoline torches?
http://www.petrogen.com/
My ideas on the trailer hitch would be to go crazy with prep. Grinding away all rust, and deep Ving all the weldments. If all I had to work with was a buzz box then I'd use 6011 to tack everything together, regrind/chip/wheel everything and then either suffer through some 3/16ths 7018 @90 amps with beucoup regrinds or do the whole thing in 6011 with lost of chipping. OR.....
I'd take two 12volt bus batteries, put them in series and use 3/8" 6010+++++ and do everything in one pass. Using the batteries straight should give you plenty of undercut. If the rod gets too hot too fast then run a lead into a bucket of water with an out going lead on the other side of the bucket. Add mud or salt until you get the right amperage at the arc.
I did all my home made truck-in-to-a-trailer hitches this way until I got the Lincoln SA200. Batterys offer the best dc power for welding, and you get the added bonus of total silence except for the hiss of the arc.
The way to defeat windy mig welding is to wear a tanker's mask
and route vehicle exhaust to the weldment with a hose. Its bad news but it gets the job done.
I did all my home made truck-in-to-a-trailer hitches this way until I got the Lincoln SA200. Batterys offer the best dc power for welding, and you get the added bonus of total silence except for the hiss of the arc.
The way to defeat windy mig welding is to wear a tanker's mask
and route vehicle exhaust to the weldment with a hose. Its bad news but it gets the job done.
Last edited by Dualfuel on Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Granny,
A good rule of thumb is "one inch of weld should hold one ton" The PSI rating for say...6011 rod means 60000lbs per square inch. This means that if you pulled a one square inch 6011 rod it would not begin plastic deformation before 60000lbs of pull or force were applied. So a linear weld one inch long should hold 2000lbs of force or weight.
One thing I have seen in my endeavors is that when all the steps are correctly followed, it isn't the welds that break its the structural metal that deforms during an event (whether that be an auto accident or hydraulic pressure of a Prentice Loader on its clam). Welding usually work hardens the area around the welds.
Anyhow, fun topic. Any of youse forging over coke or charcoal?
DF
A good rule of thumb is "one inch of weld should hold one ton" The PSI rating for say...6011 rod means 60000lbs per square inch. This means that if you pulled a one square inch 6011 rod it would not begin plastic deformation before 60000lbs of pull or force were applied. So a linear weld one inch long should hold 2000lbs of force or weight.
One thing I have seen in my endeavors is that when all the steps are correctly followed, it isn't the welds that break its the structural metal that deforms during an event (whether that be an auto accident or hydraulic pressure of a Prentice Loader on its clam). Welding usually work hardens the area around the welds.
Anyhow, fun topic. Any of youse forging over coke or charcoal?
DF
Ha Rudy!
Its not McGiver...I served on an M88 crew for awhile..
The battery welding kit is part of the 88's TO&E. Its like an armored shop.
The McGiver part is the bucket o' mud, as nobody at home would have current limiting resistors in that power range lying about. That part I attribute to Mr. Krueger when he had to weld our Percheron's ice picks on his shoes for pulling the cutter on the lake. Mr Krueger used sweepings from around the forge to change the resistance of the water. By the way, when he did it, he used horse water and electric fence wire as the lead into the bucket.
I was very small but I remember that bucket boiling away and Carl cussing and spitting cigar juice (he chewed cigars). He muttered about it being easier to just make ice shoes on the forge intead of welding picks.
Anyhoo, there are simply many many different ways of welding.
DF
Its not McGiver...I served on an M88 crew for awhile..
The battery welding kit is part of the 88's TO&E. Its like an armored shop.
The McGiver part is the bucket o' mud, as nobody at home would have current limiting resistors in that power range lying about. That part I attribute to Mr. Krueger when he had to weld our Percheron's ice picks on his shoes for pulling the cutter on the lake. Mr Krueger used sweepings from around the forge to change the resistance of the water. By the way, when he did it, he used horse water and electric fence wire as the lead into the bucket.
I was very small but I remember that bucket boiling away and Carl cussing and spitting cigar juice (he chewed cigars). He muttered about it being easier to just make ice shoes on the forge intead of welding picks.
Anyhoo, there are simply many many different ways of welding.
DF
What I want to know is how they got that tank to roll over on it's side!! Was it just staged that way for a lesson in tank recovery, or is that a pic of a real incident?
Granny, it sounds like you have been doing your homework! Go to the head of the class and get not only an A for your work- but a gold star beside your name as well!
Granny, it sounds like you have been doing your homework! Go to the head of the class and get not only an A for your work- but a gold star beside your name as well!
Welding Class ...
Dburt, your welding class is great. Everyone seems to be hitting the suggestions right on ...
I would add ... Make sure one of the lenses in the welding hood is GLASS. PLASTIC will NOT protect your eyes from UV rays, glass will. Even my eyeglasses are now plastic. My GOLD #10 primary lens is coated plastic. If it gets scratched it's trash. A plastic cover plate on the outside is cheap and easy to replace, saving the glass and shielding lenses from damage and your eyes from UV and possible cataracts.
#5 shade lens is standard for Oxy/Acetylene welding.
VENTILATE ... even outside. Keep your face out of the fumes. Rods are flux coated, flux cored mig wire, self explanatory; brazing uses flux ... not as major an issue with Tig, but all welding processes develop fumes.
I remember 1976, being inside a 400' tall coker at the Cheyenne Husky Oil Refinery welding with these terribly small trumpet ventilators that did Not do the job ... coughing up black c--p for days ... we were expendable. We were not given any type of breathing apparatus. I lived on milk.
The principle issue with coke forge welding is breathing fumes, why a lot of smithies died early. I, like Rudy's welding partner, prefer the propane forge. Tho they eat propane and don't achieve the exact temps, close enough and safe enough for most forge welding these days. All good coke forges have excellent ventilation hoods, but starting and bedding fires always produce smoke if not fan vented.
I was also taught that MILK had qualities that helped remove a lot of the fumes, etc ... whether true or not, I still drink it.
I know I'm still missing issues, but hope to add to the info, hope this helps.
Excellent topic, keep up the good work. GoodClue
I would add ... Make sure one of the lenses in the welding hood is GLASS. PLASTIC will NOT protect your eyes from UV rays, glass will. Even my eyeglasses are now plastic. My GOLD #10 primary lens is coated plastic. If it gets scratched it's trash. A plastic cover plate on the outside is cheap and easy to replace, saving the glass and shielding lenses from damage and your eyes from UV and possible cataracts.
#5 shade lens is standard for Oxy/Acetylene welding.
VENTILATE ... even outside. Keep your face out of the fumes. Rods are flux coated, flux cored mig wire, self explanatory; brazing uses flux ... not as major an issue with Tig, but all welding processes develop fumes.
I remember 1976, being inside a 400' tall coker at the Cheyenne Husky Oil Refinery welding with these terribly small trumpet ventilators that did Not do the job ... coughing up black c--p for days ... we were expendable. We were not given any type of breathing apparatus. I lived on milk.
The principle issue with coke forge welding is breathing fumes, why a lot of smithies died early. I, like Rudy's welding partner, prefer the propane forge. Tho they eat propane and don't achieve the exact temps, close enough and safe enough for most forge welding these days. All good coke forges have excellent ventilation hoods, but starting and bedding fires always produce smoke if not fan vented.
I was also taught that MILK had qualities that helped remove a lot of the fumes, etc ... whether true or not, I still drink it.
I know I'm still missing issues, but hope to add to the info, hope this helps.
Excellent topic, keep up the good work. GoodClue
"ya gotta have art ..."
It took me a while to remember about the milk thing. I get there eventually but my memory IS failing.
The milk thing is called Chelation. What happens is that milk forms some kind of molecule that binds up the reactive ends of the heavy metals or smoke. It literally surrounds the bad molecule making it non-reactive.
I suppose I should look this up on Wicki as a refresher. I just can't believe it took me a whole day to remember. I'm not smart or pretty, but I used to be able to remember everything, and I mean everything from phone numbers to everybodies social security numbers.
Now I have to have my wife call me so I can find the phone....whatever.
The milk thing is called Chelation. What happens is that milk forms some kind of molecule that binds up the reactive ends of the heavy metals or smoke. It literally surrounds the bad molecule making it non-reactive.
I suppose I should look this up on Wicki as a refresher. I just can't believe it took me a whole day to remember. I'm not smart or pretty, but I used to be able to remember everything, and I mean everything from phone numbers to everybodies social security numbers.
Now I have to have my wife call me so I can find the phone....whatever.
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