The Hazards of Buying a Used Bus or: has my Karma gone sour?

[dburt]

Busbart- you can Google ATS Turbochargers and also Banks Turbochargers and it will take you to the websites where you can read more on the turbochargers, and find out costs, etc. If your engine is not turbocharged, you would be amazed at the difference it would make to put a turbo on it. You can also get kits to install in your transmission to make it perform better and last longer. Welcome to this website, we all owe Sharkey a tremendous amount of gratitude for making this available to all of us truck/bus mobile and rolling home makers and wanna-be's.

[jay]

...must be a moral to this story. Hey, I think I know what it is- I should have stuck with my good old original bus and built my porch on the back! Or, beware of low mileage church buses that are well maintained.

there ain't much out there not needin' work fer 2 grand. just "offer it up"

[dburt]

Found a couple of Ford conventional 48-pass buses today up for bid by a local school district. A '91 and a '92, both with the Ford Cummins-wannabe 5.9 diesel with auto transmissions. One has 130,000 and the other is about 150,000. No rust, the '91 has juice brakes, and the '92 has air brakes. They had put a minimum bid of $700 and $1,000 respectively, but got no takers. So now they are open to other bids, but give no assurance they will take a bid if they deem it too low. If I was in a climate where I needed a greenhouse for the garden, I would bid $1,000 for both ($500 each) and probably get them. Then I would use them as greenhouses. Or for cheap storage units.

[busbart]

I would recheck which transmission you have. It is more likely the E4OD which is a piece of junk transmission.

While your truck is rated for 11,000 GVW, in reality it is no different from a one ton E- or F-series truck with a lower speed rear end--same engine, same transmission, same brakes, same springs.

Hello Mark, yes, i'am sorry, it is the E40D.
And for the second part, you're also right, but since literature of US build trucks here is to be found next to nowhere, can somebody help me out for the (is it the Gross Combined Weight Rating? GCWR?) maximum weight, truck,trailer and load? for a 1989 F-350 #11000 Lbs 4x4 7.3 L diesel dually auto tranny?

Thanks in advance!

Bart

[dburt]

Busbart- try and Google "1989 Ford F350 4X4 specs" and I am sure you will bring up websites that can give you the info you need. Back in the days when the Ford dealership I worked for sold many Ford diesel pickup trucks, most were one ton models, our customers worked them hard and heavy as if they were 2.5 ton trucks. The Ford diesel 4X4 trucks were quite capable of doing much more work, and hauling a much heaver load then what they were rated for. You truck should be able to gross out at about 12,000 lbs by it's self, and should be able to handle a gross combined load of truck and trailer of about 18,000 lbs with no problem other then lack of power. But if you put a turbo on the diesel you will gain alot of power!

[Mark R. Obtinario]

If the builder's plate indicates a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of #11,000 I would say that it can probably handle that weight.

I had two E-350 buses with that engine/transmission with that GVWR and an empty weight of #9500. The engine could more than handle the weight but the transmission wasn't up to the task.

As far as the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) is concerned, I think dburt's guess of #18,000 is in the neighborhood. If the trailer has good brakes that work properly and the hitch is set up correctly for the weight of the load.

The two limiting factors for you are going to be the weakness of the transmission and the amount of brakes that are on the truck.

I had one E-350 bus that had a GVWR of #14,000 and an empty weight of almost #11,000. Every third oil change I was changing out the front brake pads. After two sets of brake pads I was changing out the front rotors.

Between the three buses over a period of five years I went through seven transmissions. The longest one went was 42,000 miles. The least one went was 12,000 miles.

I have been told there are some fixes now available for the E4OD that weren't available when I was running those buses. The basic problem is the E4OD was never designed to be a truck transmission. It was originally designed for the Aerostar and cars like the Crown Vic and Town Car. Which is why all of the light duty Ford U-haul trucks came from the factory with the C6 instead of the E4OD.

What kills the E4OD is heat. The oil passages are such that even if you had a transmission cooler the size of a semi's radiator you would not be able to keep the oil cool enough inside the transmission as the oil passes through the transmission. It can go in cold and it will come out the other side smoking hot.

You can swap out the E4OD for the C6 if you don't mind having a top speed of about 50 MPH.

In order to up the GVWR to above #10,000 the rear end ratio was made very short legged. Most were geared 4.56:1 which when coupled to the overdrive gave a reasonable highway speed. But when hooked to a direct drive it limits your top end.

[dburt]

Mark is spot on, you have to do something about the transmssion. There are aftermarket units available that will be bullet-proof, but you have to be prepared to shell out some heavy bucks. Get a copy of Four Wheeler magazine, or Off Road magazine and there are ads in that type of magazine for heavy duty transmissions, torque converters, kits, etc. With some cash investment, you can turn your E350 into a great machine capable of hauling and towing a good sized load.

[Busbart]

If the builder's plate indicates a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of #11,000 I would say that it can probably handle that weight.

I checked the builders plate, and it says that mine is build as a Incomplete Vehicle, therefore I think they couldn't give it a GCWR.
further i researched the VIN number, and it sait that my truck has a "hydraulic brake system 10.000#/14.000#
But since i do not know how US truckbuilders determine their GCWR's , i can't deal with that. but 18.000# doesn't sound unreasanoble to me!

[/quote]
The two limiting factors for you are going to be the weakness of the transmission and the amount of brakes that are on the truck.

According the people from the testcenter in France an American truck is famous of not having such good brakes as an about equal vehicle here in europe, that gives me fear though, they gonna test my brakes in laboratory conditions, and i'm not sure if they will pass?!?
And off course that depends also on which set of references they use, after all it is a truck from 1989...

Between the three buses over a period of five years I went through seven transmissions. The longest one went was 42,000 miles. The least one went was 12,000 miles.

This is just what i think redicilous!!!! over here is the opinion that the only ones who can make a true autobox are the Americans!!!
why they don't just build a proper one in such a truck?!?!?

You can swap out the E4OD for the C6 if you don't mind having a top speed of about 50 MPH.

Normally, if you have a good adress for (re)building a trans, they can build in a set of gears so they match, and have the same top speed as the E4OD, can't they?

Anyway, people, i really appriciate these answers, they give me much to think about, Thanks!!!


Bart

[Mark R. Obtinario]

Since you are France I have no idea as to what you may encounter when you go to license your vehicle.

I am thinking that if the GVWR is 11,000 lbs (I have no idea as to what the metric conversion is) you shouldn't have any problem getting the authorities to allow you 18,000 lbs for a GCWR.

Again, if you do load your truck that heavily you need to make sure the trailer has adequate braking capability.

The brakes on your Ford are adequate for the task. I have a 1951 IHC dumptruck that is rated for 18,000 lbs and the brakes are smaller than what is on your Ford.

I don't believe the authorities can require your "vintage" vehicle to meet or exceed current standards. At least they can't in the USA.

As far as comarisons between European and American truck brakes, in my experience the European commercial vehicles are way underbraked compared to American commercial vehicles. Most European commercial vehicles have some sort of auxillary braking system in addition to the standard service brakes.

If you include the auxillary braking system in the comparison then I would agree the Euro's are better braked.

But it isn't a real apples to apples comparison at that point.

[mokibrabrant]

I like everything Mark has to say. He is well reasoned, and only slightly emotional, or invested when it come to the Crown. I read this thread in it's entirety. And feel blessed that with probably a 10th of Bus Related knowledge as Mark; I seemed to have done well with my recent purchase. I believe it fit the bill of Mark's preferences in it's entirety, except for the fact that it has the 5 speed Eaton (synchro) fuller transmission. I have the 40ft two axle, currently certified by the Washington State Patrol, therefore it offers options many states don't require. Pneumatic Sanders would fall into this category. And of course it has the NT855 Cummins. However, if I'm not mistaken in my bus Searches I did come across an Amtrans that did have the Navistar DT466...........This bus was in the Shorty Transit style and I believe it was a 93.......about 28' to 30' in length. I was very attracted to this bus, as it had a couple side compartments outside of the one for the battery. It was also a pusher. Haven't seen many, but it seemed like a very sweet bus..........It certainly sent me on a foray to discover more about the DT466........surely a benchmark engine....used in many applications.........so I'll leave it at that............and if you have any suggestions for that NT855, things I should be wary of and extreme measure to tend to certain aspects please let me know. The best Thing about this purchase is the maintenance manual as well as all the manuals that pertain to this model............Aloha............mokibrabrant

[brian]

That cummins 855 is one solid engine. Just learn how to adjust the valves (the trick is how to feel the bridges). Adjust the injectors with an inch-pound tourqe wrench (believe its 72 in-#s). Oil & filters and it will probably run forever

[mokibrabrant]

Thanks for the post Brian: It is encouraging...I rather sensed this engine might be the One........The only provocative warnings I could locate on the web, was that this engine had a tendency to crack flywheels, and it's one you don't want to run out of fuel. When replacing fuel filters and such I suppose it's not completely possible to not introduce air into the system........I mean with pumps and injectors..........I sense that it is imperative these systems be free of air............That they are to remain a "closed system". There must be "tricks" and precautions to achieve this I am interested in learning them all. I mean one is fairly simple, don't run out of fuel. There must be an art to changing the fuel filters. as well I don't have a handle with regard the coolant, cavitation, in wet sleeves. I read a lot about the DT466 and this cavitation problem, correct coolant, distilled water, and then there are the 0-rings....the 0 ring thing scared me somewhat, I always get scared with the water in the Oil.......Oil in the Water syndrome. I believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. In the vernacular I have never spun a wrench on a diesel. I've got a lot to learn on this principle......All the help you and others can provide me to grasp the "principles" these engines would be greatly appreciated.........2 cycles.........4 cycles........EPA.........I know there is a whole school of diesel guy who believe not 4 cycle could ever compete with the 2..........Just goes on and on doesn't it? All I know for sure, after this thread, I went on the Web and tried to find someone who said something positive about Cat engines.........and found only terrain of great discontent.................I'm glad I held out and avoided buses with Cats. I guess one principle in engines holds true......in terms of ease of performance the "straights" eights and sixes, Gas or Diesel.....are the only way to Fly..........Aloha.........Moki