Bob's Machine
Moderator: TMAX
One last thing? What are these things on the side of the compressor? One looks like it has a screw cap on top of it, and the other thing looks like a breather of some sort. Thanks, Mark, for your time to answer questions. I, as well as others are impressed with your knowledge of these buses and bus engines.
Last edited by Rudy on Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I did get the hand pump in an tight! I just drove to a camping world (with only 2 stalls) to park for a couple of days and I will try looking at more things now that I have a full tank of water and empty holding tanks so I can shower afterwards. (My engine is covered in black...needs a washing bad)
My favorite way to work on this thing is to play guitar for people to make enough $ to just pay them to fix it for me! I am going to be working on that while trying to fix it myself. I didnt know that there was a return line to the tank! So many things that are unknown to me about these monsters.
I can tell that it is just starving for fuel...I am sure that it is air or dirt in there somewhere...I was looking at manual and found that there is an internal filter on some pump somewhere that can be taken out and cleaned. I still have not found the unit...let alone the filter. It is supposed to be on a fuel line inlet...someplace.
Hey Rudy! Wow...learning WHAT motor you have is a great thing! These things certainly are different from our machines of days gone when life was so simple.
My favorite way to work on this thing is to play guitar for people to make enough $ to just pay them to fix it for me! I am going to be working on that while trying to fix it myself. I didnt know that there was a return line to the tank! So many things that are unknown to me about these monsters.
I can tell that it is just starving for fuel...I am sure that it is air or dirt in there somewhere...I was looking at manual and found that there is an internal filter on some pump somewhere that can be taken out and cleaned. I still have not found the unit...let alone the filter. It is supposed to be on a fuel line inlet...someplace.
Hey Rudy! Wow...learning WHAT motor you have is a great thing! These things certainly are different from our machines of days gone when life was so simple.
Well, I am disheartened. I did some research and also went to some forums dealing with the 1160 and the 3208. The general consensus is that most people think that they both make good boat anchors. I think I am going to cry. From what I have read in the past month, The IHC 466 motor is the one to have. I only wish I had known about Sharkey's forums before I bought my bus. BOO HOO! I bet there is no realistic way to get a DT466 in my bus. It would probably be cheaper to buy a bus with one in there and build the interior of that. I don't see that happening. I just hope that my engine keeps running if I should choose to go out west. What a bummer. Well, at least the inside of my bus is way cool. Rudy, the guy with the awful motor.
A lot of people bad mouth the 3208 and the 1160. Why is that? Are they underpowered? Do they fall apart? Is it because they don't do the heavy duty work of other engines (as in construction equipment)?
Here's an attempt to console myself. My engine was made May of 1973. It has been running for 36 years. (That's more than I can say for most gasoline engines). It starts up, even in cold weather. After it warms up, it goes down the road and doesn't smoke except for black smoke when going up a hill. It goes 75 miles an hour. So, I take those things in consideration. All I ask from you knowledgeable people is, please don't make me take off my rose colored glasses.
Here's an attempt to console myself. My engine was made May of 1973. It has been running for 36 years. (That's more than I can say for most gasoline engines). It starts up, even in cold weather. After it warms up, it goes down the road and doesn't smoke except for black smoke when going up a hill. It goes 75 miles an hour. So, I take those things in consideration. All I ask from you knowledgeable people is, please don't make me take off my rose colored glasses.
Well Rudy- take heart, my remaining bus (the rear engined Thomas) is powered by a 3208 and the one I sold (the front engined Ward) was a DT466. I have been feeling kinda' glum too.
There are about 4 local school districts in the area that I check in with on a regular basis to see what they might be selling in the way of surplus buses in the near future. So I always quiz the dept heads to see what they think are the best buses. I thought that maby the Cat 3116 might be a good engine, since it was pre-electronic engine controls, unlike the 3126 which seems to have problems with the electronic engine controls according to the Transportation supervisors and the mechanics.
One of the districts will have two (about 12-14 years old) rear engine Thomas buses coming up next year with the 3116 Cat engines and the Allison MT643 transmission, with about 125-150,000 miles on them. They are very well maintained but Mark does not think much of the Cat engines and he seems to know something about buses. So I am not sure I should wait to see if I could get one of those.
Problem is, I can't afford to get what I want and I even have trouble finding them- a standard style bus, IH with the DT466 and Allison MT643 auto. Then I can put my little back porch on the bus. I don't want one with over 150,000 on the clock, and I don't want one from back east or the mid-west due to rust issues. Picky, picky, picky!
Too bad I did not have the coin, or I would have bid on that nice '90 Crown that just sold on EbayMotors for only $4,600 with about 150,000 miles on it.
I don't know if enough money and the right rig will ever come together at the same time! But that is the stuff dreams are made of, right? So lets all keep on dreamin' of that ideal "perfect" bus!!
One more thing Rudy- there is a rear engine California Gillig Bus on EbayMotors right now that has over 320,000 on the odometer and it has developed engine problems so it only has a starting bid of $999. It is a Cat 3208T so I like to think that a 3208 will go at least 300,000 miles! That means I have another 160,000 to go on my Thomas before any trouble!
(Mark would probably say that Gillig bus has had several 3208 engines to get that far! 
)
There are about 4 local school districts in the area that I check in with on a regular basis to see what they might be selling in the way of surplus buses in the near future. So I always quiz the dept heads to see what they think are the best buses. I thought that maby the Cat 3116 might be a good engine, since it was pre-electronic engine controls, unlike the 3126 which seems to have problems with the electronic engine controls according to the Transportation supervisors and the mechanics.
One of the districts will have two (about 12-14 years old) rear engine Thomas buses coming up next year with the 3116 Cat engines and the Allison MT643 transmission, with about 125-150,000 miles on them. They are very well maintained but Mark does not think much of the Cat engines and he seems to know something about buses. So I am not sure I should wait to see if I could get one of those.
Problem is, I can't afford to get what I want and I even have trouble finding them- a standard style bus, IH with the DT466 and Allison MT643 auto. Then I can put my little back porch on the bus. I don't want one with over 150,000 on the clock, and I don't want one from back east or the mid-west due to rust issues. Picky, picky, picky!
Too bad I did not have the coin, or I would have bid on that nice '90 Crown that just sold on EbayMotors for only $4,600 with about 150,000 miles on it.
I don't know if enough money and the right rig will ever come together at the same time! But that is the stuff dreams are made of, right? So lets all keep on dreamin' of that ideal "perfect" bus!!
One more thing Rudy- there is a rear engine California Gillig Bus on EbayMotors right now that has over 320,000 on the odometer and it has developed engine problems so it only has a starting bid of $999. It is a Cat 3208T so I like to think that a 3208 will go at least 300,000 miles! That means I have another 160,000 to go on my Thomas before any trouble!
(Mark would probably say that Gillig bus has had several 3208 engines to get that far! )-
mokibrabrant
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IT IS WHAT IT IS..........AND THAT'S IT.
I've read a lot of diesel forums in the last few years. trying to get as familiar.........did a lot of reading about the T444, DT466, and the Cats..........I remember a spitting contest between the advocate of a dd 6v71 and the owner of a 3208 Cat........The Cat owner was adamant that the Detroits could not keep up with him in the Mountains, The DD guy would have none of it: and I believe they actually have planned to meet, and lay the rubber on the Line.
With regard the Crown. I was quite pleased with my 30 ft All-American, but like many of you, I enjoy Machines, and the closer they are to the State of the Art, well, the more I appreciate them.....If some power on high had informed me, that the last Bus I would own would be my All-American, I would have been quite pleased with the life I had been given. I truly Loved this bus, Every moment behind the Wheel was Splendid: I can say in all honesty, that I haven't slept better in fifteen years, than I did in the nest I created in the Back of that Bus...........
The Crown, and in particular this Crown is a different system altogether. I had no intention of purchasing another bus. And it's not that I just have bundles of cash hanging around for Bus Purchases. In order to fulfill my obligations, I had to sell my 1963 Ford Stepside Pickup.......And I sold it for about $2500.00+ less than I could have gotten for it..............I also put my Bluebird on the Line, but got cold feet at the end, as I could not bear the thought of losing this bus, for a fraction of what it is worth, at least to me; without having the Crown in Hand. I have looked at 10's of thousands of bus. This Crown seemed pretty close to being a one of a kind. Personally, I had never seen the Crown with the Cummins Nt855,,,I have seen them with Detroits, as Well as the Hall Scott: and of course the 220, 260. 270 cummins..........When I went on line, and found that the Cummins 855 had been around since 1956...........and then searched all the myriad of applications it has been used in, and the loyal following it has garnered, as a power plant: Everything from power generators, to over the road trucks to locomotives. Well I was very impressed.
This Bus chose me. It is that Simple. I tried to fabricate a flaw, create a self imposed ruse. But it was useless. It is, to me, unique even among Crowns, to it's over all condition, the fact that by 1990 it is a dying Breed in terms of Production..........That engine...........the Tint............and the Cockpit. the cruising speed...........75 mph at 1650 rpm......I worked my ass off for a week, to be able to muster together the cash to make this happen.
As far as I'm concerned, whether it's a cat, a cummins, a Detroit, or a Dt466..........These ar benchmark engines. Each brings to the table their own strengths. The serious issue with the Cat is that it is a V8...In the Case of this engine in Heavy machinery...........it is imperative to have a militant maintenance program. In the case of the 3208, say in a gillig, it is imperative to find a power band that is not necessarily even close to what it has been marketed to achieve. I would always tune a Cat down, to the bare minimum I could live with...........Excessove RPM are deadly for this engine.......Whereas say in the Detroit 6V71, it's actually suggested to keep your foot in it, not lug it, and keep those RPM's up, even though you may have already exceeded your optimum HP and or torgue band.....So it is what it is..........We need to be wise enough to know what it is, and make life easy for it..........that it would make life easy for us. I know that in the Case of my All American, with the 427TD.......The fact that it is governed at 65 mph is the saving grace for that engine. Yeah I want to go faster, yeah the Bus could Handle 100........but I just have to slow down. Be happy with my 65. It beats the hell out of being stranded in a bus, on a four lane highway, in the middle of Pennsylvania, in the middle of nowhere, two feet from the painted white line you pulled off to, cause there was no real shoulder, with 18 and 20 wheelers flying by at 80....18 inches from your Bus.....just cause you had to push a couple hundred more rpm's out of an engine, and maybe get 4 miles per hour out of it.
so it's about cubic inches, it's about weight, it's about aerodynamics.........it's not always about money..........It's just our Nature to want more, and this has probably led Men to much Folly. Appreciate what you have.......take care of it............We'll all get where we're headed, for all we know, at the same time.......Sorry for the Speech...........Just on a Crown High...........Aloha........Brant
With regard the Crown. I was quite pleased with my 30 ft All-American, but like many of you, I enjoy Machines, and the closer they are to the State of the Art, well, the more I appreciate them.....If some power on high had informed me, that the last Bus I would own would be my All-American, I would have been quite pleased with the life I had been given. I truly Loved this bus, Every moment behind the Wheel was Splendid: I can say in all honesty, that I haven't slept better in fifteen years, than I did in the nest I created in the Back of that Bus...........
The Crown, and in particular this Crown is a different system altogether. I had no intention of purchasing another bus. And it's not that I just have bundles of cash hanging around for Bus Purchases. In order to fulfill my obligations, I had to sell my 1963 Ford Stepside Pickup.......And I sold it for about $2500.00+ less than I could have gotten for it..............I also put my Bluebird on the Line, but got cold feet at the end, as I could not bear the thought of losing this bus, for a fraction of what it is worth, at least to me; without having the Crown in Hand. I have looked at 10's of thousands of bus. This Crown seemed pretty close to being a one of a kind. Personally, I had never seen the Crown with the Cummins Nt855,,,I have seen them with Detroits, as Well as the Hall Scott: and of course the 220, 260. 270 cummins..........When I went on line, and found that the Cummins 855 had been around since 1956...........and then searched all the myriad of applications it has been used in, and the loyal following it has garnered, as a power plant: Everything from power generators, to over the road trucks to locomotives. Well I was very impressed.
This Bus chose me. It is that Simple. I tried to fabricate a flaw, create a self imposed ruse. But it was useless. It is, to me, unique even among Crowns, to it's over all condition, the fact that by 1990 it is a dying Breed in terms of Production..........That engine...........the Tint............and the Cockpit. the cruising speed...........75 mph at 1650 rpm......I worked my ass off for a week, to be able to muster together the cash to make this happen.
As far as I'm concerned, whether it's a cat, a cummins, a Detroit, or a Dt466..........These ar benchmark engines. Each brings to the table their own strengths. The serious issue with the Cat is that it is a V8...In the Case of this engine in Heavy machinery...........it is imperative to have a militant maintenance program. In the case of the 3208, say in a gillig, it is imperative to find a power band that is not necessarily even close to what it has been marketed to achieve. I would always tune a Cat down, to the bare minimum I could live with...........Excessove RPM are deadly for this engine.......Whereas say in the Detroit 6V71, it's actually suggested to keep your foot in it, not lug it, and keep those RPM's up, even though you may have already exceeded your optimum HP and or torgue band.....So it is what it is..........We need to be wise enough to know what it is, and make life easy for it..........that it would make life easy for us. I know that in the Case of my All American, with the 427TD.......The fact that it is governed at 65 mph is the saving grace for that engine. Yeah I want to go faster, yeah the Bus could Handle 100........but I just have to slow down. Be happy with my 65. It beats the hell out of being stranded in a bus, on a four lane highway, in the middle of Pennsylvania, in the middle of nowhere, two feet from the painted white line you pulled off to, cause there was no real shoulder, with 18 and 20 wheelers flying by at 80....18 inches from your Bus.....just cause you had to push a couple hundred more rpm's out of an engine, and maybe get 4 miles per hour out of it.
so it's about cubic inches, it's about weight, it's about aerodynamics.........it's not always about money..........It's just our Nature to want more, and this has probably led Men to much Folly. Appreciate what you have.......take care of it............We'll all get where we're headed, for all we know, at the same time.......Sorry for the Speech...........Just on a Crown High...........Aloha........Brant
Thought I should do an update here on my rig. I have spent more time in repair shops in the last two months than I have on the road. My injector pump was removed and sent to the pump shop to be rebuilt and cleaned. It had a lot of crap and debris in it and the lifter pump wasnt working at all. So...with all new seals and a powerful new pump I headed out of Phoenix towards Quartzsite Az at speeds I havent seen in 4 years! I was talking to Rudy sharing this enthusiastic moment when it started surging and slowing down. Sigh...what a mood killer.
Now back at the shop and after pressure tests while driving to be certain.. the fuel tank is out and sent to a radiator shop to be cleaned..the fuel lines are being tested and cleaned...new fuel filters and I am CERTAIN that my ship will once again be a joy to drive.
I tried posting some pictures of before and after meeting the dump truck on the mountain road, but I havent figured out how to do it in here. I have some in myspace at www.myspace.com/bobhalloran if you want to see..or I will get some on here sometime soon.
I think the problem was from dirty fuel..thats what Clark Kent thinks too. The shop in Mesa Az is Kents Diesel Works, he knows more about these things than any other mechanic I have dealt with...thats why I call him Clark Kent.
Mark hit it on the head with dirty fuel and lines...I am learning and am much less intimidated about working on it now. Thanks to all![/img]
Now back at the shop and after pressure tests while driving to be certain.. the fuel tank is out and sent to a radiator shop to be cleaned..the fuel lines are being tested and cleaned...new fuel filters and I am CERTAIN that my ship will once again be a joy to drive.
I tried posting some pictures of before and after meeting the dump truck on the mountain road, but I havent figured out how to do it in here. I have some in myspace at www.myspace.com/bobhalloran if you want to see..or I will get some on here sometime soon.
I think the problem was from dirty fuel..thats what Clark Kent thinks too. The shop in Mesa Az is Kents Diesel Works, he knows more about these things than any other mechanic I have dealt with...thats why I call him Clark Kent.
Mark hit it on the head with dirty fuel and lines...I am learning and am much less intimidated about working on it now. Thanks to all![/img]
Wherever I am...I am home.
This is a topic of interest to me, as the fuel in the Crown as 14 years old and definitely gunky. When I moved in 2006, I took along a spare filter, and needed it after about 50 miles.
There are a variety of pre-filters that could be installed, although each one would require a mounting flange and the associated plumbing. The goal would be to filter to smaller and smaller particle levels.
Most retail diesel fuel pumps will have an inline filter. Whether or not it gets replaced in a proper schedule is open to interpretation. The recommended place to buy fuel is and always has been a retailer who sells thousands of gallons per week, if not per day, as they will have the freshest fuel, and probably the most frequently maintained tanks and filters.
Once your bus tank gets contaminated, you might just as well pull it off the coach and send it out for cleaning/coating, as you will ~never~ manage to get rid of the crud in the tank and the rust sloughing off the tank interior will be a continuous source of contaminants. I had the tanks on the Housetruck cleaned and coated in the 1980's at a radiator shop. I don't know what the goo that they use to seal the tank is made of, but it stinks, even twenty-nine years later!
There are a variety of pre-filters that could be installed, although each one would require a mounting flange and the associated plumbing. The goal would be to filter to smaller and smaller particle levels.
Most retail diesel fuel pumps will have an inline filter. Whether or not it gets replaced in a proper schedule is open to interpretation. The recommended place to buy fuel is and always has been a retailer who sells thousands of gallons per week, if not per day, as they will have the freshest fuel, and probably the most frequently maintained tanks and filters.
Once your bus tank gets contaminated, you might just as well pull it off the coach and send it out for cleaning/coating, as you will ~never~ manage to get rid of the crud in the tank and the rust sloughing off the tank interior will be a continuous source of contaminants. I had the tanks on the Housetruck cleaned and coated in the 1980's at a radiator shop. I don't know what the goo that they use to seal the tank is made of, but it stinks, even twenty-nine years later!
I think I may get some sheets from a thrift store and cut to fit filters out of them. Might take a little longer at fill-ups, but I have been sitting on a repair shop for a couple of weeks over this already. Clark Kent also told me that anytime your bus is going to be sitting for a while ALWAYS make certain that the tank is full, that way there will be no rust or "crap" build up inside. Good preventative medicine.
Wherever I am...I am home.
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stuartcnz
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Hopefully Mark will jump in to correct the technical details that I get wrong here: Diesel can get a bug (bacterial I think) It happens when there is water in the tank and the bacteria breed at the layer, where the water and diesel meet. Once in the system the bug will transfere to other tanks that the diesel is transfered to.
That is why it is not a good idea to use diesel that has been sitting. There is a gell that you can get the put in your tanks, to stop the bug from becoming established and most fuel stations should have it in their storage tanks.
On commercial fishing boats, they have fuel polishing systems, which clean the diesel before it gets to the engine. I don't know how they work, but they do. The boat operators lives depend on the reliability of their engines! It would probably be worth finding out more about the polishing systems, just to get a better idea of some of the various characteristics of diesel as a fuel.
That is why it is not a good idea to use diesel that has been sitting. There is a gell that you can get the put in your tanks, to stop the bug from becoming established and most fuel stations should have it in their storage tanks.
On commercial fishing boats, they have fuel polishing systems, which clean the diesel before it gets to the engine. I don't know how they work, but they do. The boat operators lives depend on the reliability of their engines! It would probably be worth finding out more about the polishing systems, just to get a better idea of some of the various characteristics of diesel as a fuel.
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https://ethicallogistics.com/ Challenging the way you think.
JID:stuart@nomadicista.nz
There are additives you can add to your diesel to kill the bacteria that can grow in your tank which produces a sludge and clogs your filters.
As Stuart has said, don't use old fuel, clean fresh fuel is best. And has been mentioned by Sharkey, always fuel up where they sell lots of diesel fuel every day, such as a truck stop. Thier fuel is better, cleaner, and has less water in it.
You can also get rid of water in your fuel by using the additives which will rid the fuel of water, and prevent jelling of your fuel in very cold temps.
I belong to a local club/forum for folks who have diesel powered pickup trucks and many of our members are into performance mods to get more power out of thier trucks. Everyone uses additional aftermarket fuel filters that go inline in the fuel system to filter out the dirt and water. It seems that is the most important mod you can make to your vehicle.
I once had a Datsun 280Z car that had rust and crud in the tank from someone leaving the gas cap off the tank before I got the car. Being perpetually poor, I could not afford a new tank so I took the old tank out of the car and removed the sending unit cover to be able to see into the tank better. I took a high pressure washer and blasted the inside of the tank, which blew the rust and crud loose, and then I would turn the tank upside down to let all the water, rust and crud run out. I repeated this process several times until all the rust and crud was gone, and then let the tank sit in the sun all day to dry it out. It worked very well and I never had a problem after that. I always used good gas, and every so often I used an alchohol based water remover/fuel cleaner to keep water out of the tank.
One of the best additives for your diesel fuel goes under the brand name "Sea Foam". You can find it at auto parts stores and truck stops.
I have a couple of good friends who own thier own over the road big trucks, and they use a good additive like Sea Foam products all the time to kill the algae type bacteria, rid the fuel of water, and keep it from gelling in very cold weather.
As Stuart has said, don't use old fuel, clean fresh fuel is best. And has been mentioned by Sharkey, always fuel up where they sell lots of diesel fuel every day, such as a truck stop. Thier fuel is better, cleaner, and has less water in it.
You can also get rid of water in your fuel by using the additives which will rid the fuel of water, and prevent jelling of your fuel in very cold temps.
I belong to a local club/forum for folks who have diesel powered pickup trucks and many of our members are into performance mods to get more power out of thier trucks. Everyone uses additional aftermarket fuel filters that go inline in the fuel system to filter out the dirt and water. It seems that is the most important mod you can make to your vehicle.
I once had a Datsun 280Z car that had rust and crud in the tank from someone leaving the gas cap off the tank before I got the car. Being perpetually poor, I could not afford a new tank so I took the old tank out of the car and removed the sending unit cover to be able to see into the tank better. I took a high pressure washer and blasted the inside of the tank, which blew the rust and crud loose, and then I would turn the tank upside down to let all the water, rust and crud run out. I repeated this process several times until all the rust and crud was gone, and then let the tank sit in the sun all day to dry it out. It worked very well and I never had a problem after that. I always used good gas, and every so often I used an alchohol based water remover/fuel cleaner to keep water out of the tank.
One of the best additives for your diesel fuel goes under the brand name "Sea Foam". You can find it at auto parts stores and truck stops.
I have a couple of good friends who own thier own over the road big trucks, and they use a good additive like Sea Foam products all the time to kill the algae type bacteria, rid the fuel of water, and keep it from gelling in very cold weather.
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